VWER Meeting Transcripts by Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License.
Based on a work at www.vwer.org.
Transcript of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable Feb 3, 2011
Topic: Virtual Worlds in Aerospace & Defense w/ Greg Moxness & Charles O’Connell
Key Points Made by Participants:
- Charles, on convincing coworkers of the value of virtual worlds, “Seed the young with ideas, soon become the decision makers or at least influencers–took about 4 years.”
- Charles on developments to come “not sure military or defense is leading in this case. [Advances] more from commercial spaces, gaming and entertainment.”
- Greg, on near-term advances: “the whole idea of gesture recognition and 3d worlds this could be this year or next”
- Greg suspects we’ll see “full body haptics,” and Charles notes “Haptics–likely to be involved because it has such high value. [It’s] never all or nothing. 2D and 3D will exist together….documents and spreadsheets along with 3D objects”
- Greg on neural interfaces like those in Gibson’s Neuromancer: “[M]aybe a step to far. . .maybe 20-30 years but will the human become less and will the machines evolve?” Charles: “a key thing that might happen, if it can be done noninvasively, something outside the body that can monitor brain waves, nerve impulses.” (Iggy’s note to any student readers: from Anderson’s novel Feed, that is the early version of the Feed interface).
- Greg agreed with the following remark by Charles, about the relative merits of 2D and 3D environments for training: “3D has immense possibilities, not an either/or question. Use 2D when better suited, or good enough. 3D [is for] experimentation or experiencing things not possible for some reason in RL.”
- Greg on an advantage of virtual worlds, the need online for something approximating face-to-face contact. Charles notes his belief that “relationships are much stronger in VW.”
- Charles also came out in favor of transparency in avatar identities (if not appearance) noting, “Treat people with respect, it’s a real place. One life, not two.It’s probably best to be yourself when dealing with others in VW.”
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I’m Joe Essid, University of Richmond Dept. of Rhetoric & Communication Studies.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: We meet each week at 2:30pm SLT for an hour.
Mojave Shepherd: I’ve lost the audio stream…am I the only one?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Our topic/theme today is Virtual Worlds in Aerospace & Defense, and I’m really pleased to introduce our panel.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I still have it
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: We will be in voice today. If you need support or have questions, IM Margaret Michalski who is down front.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: The Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education.
Margaret Michalski: Jane Austen : )
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: This is a public meeting, so we do keep and publish a transcript of what is said in local chat. If youâhave not seen the transcripts, you should check them out â they are an excellent information asset.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: The transcripts can be found at our web site, http://www.vwer.org , and select the LIBRARY tab at the top.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: The Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable continues to develop a community of educators from around the world with a variety of thoughts, needs, and ideas.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Please join the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable group here in SL. You can also find us on Facebook, Koinup, and Flickr by our full name and Twitter @VWER.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: When you blog or tweet, please remember to use the hashtag #vwer (IM me if you are not sure what that means)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: If you have Mystitool on, or other similar tool, please put it to sleep or detach it for now. It tends to lag things.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: For Q&A today, we’ll be using Google Moderator. You will need a Google account to post your questions.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: You are welcome to use the local chat as a back channel, but if you have a question for our panel, we will be using Google Moderator.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: We won’t be monitoring local chat, so please put the question into Moderator.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Google Moderator is a web-based tool where you can go to add a question AND/OR vote on questions that have already been posted.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: You can get to the site quickly by clicking either of the white cubes to the right or left of the panelists and me.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: The most popular questions will appear on the top of the list, and those are the questions I’ll ask in voice chat.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: You should visit http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: You can ask and vote for questions. Again, you do need a Google account to sign in.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I’ll briefly introduce our panelists and then they can let you know more about themselves.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Our guests are Greg Moxness (PCGuru Xi) and Charles O’Connell (Charles3D Raymaker)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: They work for a US-based defense and aerospace contractor, but their interests include more than the use of virtual worlds in those fields.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: The tessaract you see above us, as well as some of the slides we’ll see relate to Greg’s interest in experimental physics.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I’ve not met Charles before today, but I met their colleague Anita last year when, by chance, I sat beside her at the annual Conference on College Composition and Communication.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: We attended a session on SL, without, by the way, any technology in the room! It was confusing for some who’d never seen the world, as you can imagine.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Then Anita and I began planning to bring her and her colleagues’ interests to a VWER gathering. She had planned to join us,
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but a last-minute change in her schedule meant she could not do so.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Now I’d like each of the panelist to briefly introduce themselves and then we’ll get started.
Kali Pizzaro: PC – ok i am a chief tech, so i get to play with the toys 😉
Kali Pizzaro: PC- i also work in aerospace and have been for 15 years and 30 years for defense
Profdan Netizen: CR: Charles O’connell, works in a large defense contractor org. 26 years, take opportunities to experiment with new tech, 3D worlds among them.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: What worked best for you in convincing coworkers and supervisors of the worth of virtual worlds?
Profdan Netizen: CR: Gandhi’s quotation so similar to what I’ve experienced with new tech.
Profdan Netizen: CR: 4-5 years attempting to insert some of the 3D world concepts, now beginning to be accepted.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Moderator address is http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Profdan Netizen: CR: We build the business case for using VWs.
toBe Destiny: what about hidden value …
Profdan Netizen: CR: but not enough to make a radical change, need mind share, overcome fear.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: “Capture mind share” is a cool term
Profdan Netizen: CR: has to be experienced for people to get it.
Bridge McMahon nods
Profdan Netizen: CR: Look for any opportunity to demonstrate value of VWs.
Profdan Netizen: CR: slowly building a group of supporters.
Profdan Netizen: CR: there can be career consequences, spending political/professional capital to get acceptance.
Profdan Netizen: CR: Seed the young with ideas, soon become the decision makers or at least influencers–took about 4 years.
Bridge McMahon: Good point CD
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: cool 🙂
Profdan Netizen: CR: Focus on the real interests and needs of the user, not the platform.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: put your questions into Moderator at http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
toBe Destiny: the mathematics can be understandable
Kali Pizzaro: PC- as a technologist we need to try to predict the future
Kali Pizzaro: which is not always easy or right
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: wow—1992 was just yesterday for some of us 🙂
Kali Pizzaro: i was the lone guy and i predicted the web would be big, so great but i said the blackberry was tosh
Kali Pizzaro: oops
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: tosh 🙂
Kali Pizzaro: PC- iwas still a bit sceptical of VWs but when i saw it could let me do what i was interested in
Kali Pizzaro: i was slowly draggeed in
Kali Pizzaro: PC- We have used both Sl and opensim
Kali Pizzaro: and it can take a lot of spare time but you need to believe it is worth it
Kali Pizzaro: and it will continue
Kali Pizzaro: in the future
Profdan Netizen: yay!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: How do you do assess effectiveness of a simulation?
Claudia13 Rossini: (respectability)
toBe Destiny: Question : “Might we soon see a purely public sector ownership of a virtual world infrastructure serving public functions such as health informatics, and education?”
Profdan Netizen: CR: assessing effectiveness, depends on sim and use.
Profdan Netizen: CR: when it comes to training, similar to any training in other venues.
Profdan Netizen: CR: tech sims: how well did it work, integration with other aspects of simulation, cost and dev. figured in as well.
Profdan Netizen: CR: Business–customer reaction esp with sales, the key metric.
Kali Pizzaro: PC- in our industry we are full of rocket scientist so we like high fidelity
Kali Pizzaro: so our folk are comfortable with high cost
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: how I wish our clients were comfy with those costs!
Kali Pizzaro: so when it is opensim then the cost is very low
Kali Pizzaro: this is why we use it in HE 😉
Kali Pizzaro: PC-cost is so low but as long as the customer see the benefit it will work
toBe Destiny: .. the problem is the problem of measurement when the values are social and not necessarily about a business process?
Kali Pizzaro: PC- sometimes convincing the rocket scientist this is worthwhile
Kali Pizzaro: is the problem
toBe Destiny: <s>
Kali Pizzaro: so a use of all the fidelities is useful
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: “`What are the most promising civilian spin-offs from the military application of VWs for training?
toBe Destiny: “Might we soon see a purely public sector ownership of a virtual world infrastructure serving public functions such as health informatics, and education?”
Profdan Netizen: CR: not sure military or defense is leading in this case.
Profdan Netizen: CR: more from commercial spaces, gaming and entertainment.
toBe Destiny: that is because you do not see behind the curtain, yes?
Profdan Netizen: CR: big challenge with military, so used to spending millions
Profdan Netizen: that the game has changed, can’t ignore commodity level simulations.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: 🙂
Profdan Netizen: CR: for air traffic control, the most expensive, yes,
Profdan Netizen: for ethics training, cheaper is as effective.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Put your questions into Moderator at http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Profdan Netizen: CR: legitimization will drive more VW use into society beyond gaming.
Profdan Netizen: CR: military spending will continue pushing frontier.
Profdan Netizen: CR: embarrassment of riches, struggling to find ways to use effectively in military apps.
Bridge McMahon: Kzero have a great map of VWs http://www.kzero.co.uk/radar.php
toBe Destiny: how can we avoid the real issues so effectively
Kali Pizzaro: PC- only thing i would add is it is difficult to look to the future
Kali Pizzaro: as the tech changes so quickly
Bridge McMahon: thinks it won’t be long before we’re wired in
Kali Pizzaro: but the whole idea of gesture recognition and 3d worlds this could be this year or next
toBe Destiny: the nature of public sector function and the issue of ultra stable provable secure distributed 3D simulation infrastructure
Kali Pizzaro: PC- i posted this recently about hacking the kinect
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: if you have questions for our speakers, put them in at http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
toBe Destiny: these could be addressed but these questions are not, very often
Jennette Forager: Here’s a new book that is relevant– (Metanomics guest) http://www.michaelchorost.com/
toBe Destiny: (I have my question there)
Kali Pizzaro: PC- I wanted to do kinect and opensim and then I realised someone was doing it
Kali Pizzaro: 😉
Jennette Forager: Book is called World Wide Mind, deals with this very subject.
Profdan Netizen: CR: intriguing that not only is tech commodized and cheap,
Profdan Netizen: but hobbyists doing it.
toBe Destiny: and would it not be nice to turn this over to social networks
Profesora Farigoule: alexander graham bell in his garage
Jennette Forager: http://boingboing.net/2010/11/01/the-master-switch-ti.html
Kali Pizzaro: can you post that book link Iggy
Jennette Forager: Tim Wu
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Tim Wu’s book is
Kali Pizzaro: cheers Jennette
toBe Destiny: and let this develop not as a business but as a communication medium
toBe Destiny: good point
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: The Master Switch
Profdan Netizen: CR: large institutions/orgs likely cannot be disruptive, counter to best interests.
Profdan Netizen: CR: Wildcat hobbyists…
Kali Pizzaro: IO_ that is the thesis
Jennette Forager: Yes, it’s excellent.
toBe Destiny: yes, perfect book
Claudia13 Rossini: IBM thinking PC’s weren’t needed
Margaret Michalski: What was the title of the book?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Look about 10 years. What sorts of advances do you think we’ll see from VW technology both in the worlds and in our daily lives?
toBe Destiny: i think we will see ontology mediated cognitive enhancement of social network functioning
Kali Pizzaro: PC- I think one for the future is for enterprises using virtual worlds in all types of nodes
Kali Pizzaro: for multimodal communication
Kali Pizzaro: PC- not possible in Rl uses
Kali Pizzaro: PC- but we need to integrate the enterprise systems with people/avatas
Kali Pizzaro: avatars
Profdan Netizen: CR: future will surprise us, 10 years frightfully long.
Hippo Slide Show: Aerospace & Defense whispers: Stopped listening.
Kali Pizzaro: 25 on the sim
Profdan Netizen: CR: we’ll all look quaint in ten years.
Profdan Netizen: CR: richer and richer models because of hardware improvement.
Birdie Newcomb: scary
toBe Destiny: i wonder if we are at the verge of a new human capacity related to community intelligence
Claudia13 Rossini: exciting
Profdan Netizen: CR: human interface: surprising keyboard and mouse so dominant. Partly because they are cheap.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: there’s this real resistance to putting wires into our heads 🙂
Profdan Netizen: CR: HUDs, goggles, give me headaches.
Kali Pizzaro: PC- full body haptics
Kali Pizzaro: 😉
Profdan Netizen: CR: Haptics–likely to be involved because it has such high value.
Profdan Netizen: CR: never all or nothing. 2D and 3D will exist together.
Profdan Netizen: CR: documents and spreadsheets along with 3D objects.
Profdan Netizen: Radio, TV, still around, even though new tech seemed about to overcome.
Kali Pizzaro: sings video killed the radio star
Kali Pizzaro: noooot
Claudia13 Rossini: LOL
Profdan Netizen: 25 on sim.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: 3D projection of a 2D representation of an 8D object 🙂
Kali Pizzaro: PC- ok the models are representations of which can not be done in the Rl worlds
Kali Pizzaro: PC- we have been trying to show this in a easier way for many years
Kali Pizzaro: Wizard has been creating these models from data given to her
toBe Destiny: i wonder what you think about the liitations to mathematics
toBe Destiny: talked about by Godel and then Penrose
Charles3D Raymaker: Godel Escher Bach, woot that got me into Computer Science
Profdan Netizen: Need a Burning Life on an opensim.
toBe Destiny: Hoffstatler
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Don’t forget to click the tesseract over our heads
Kali Pizzaro: PC-I wanted to show an atristic look at the visualisation of a mathmatical
toBe Destiny: the issue that should be about the limits of Hilbert mathematics
Profdan Netizen: It’s very cool.
toBe Destiny: the evolution of science
Kali Pizzaro: PC- the cube corners give out note cards with ideas behind the images
Kali Pizzaro: the mathematical concepts
Gloria Mills: very cool
Claudia13 Rossini: lol
Kali Pizzaro: PC- What I do does not fit exactly with the job i do but I have some freedom
Kali Pizzaro: to work on this
Kali Pizzaro: IO- I wanted to show you the slides of Greg’s works
stiofainx Rau: never
Profdan Netizen: Tad Williams, Otherland.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: “I’m asking this for my students, who are reading Neuromancer right now: do you foresee neural interfaces that permit users to interact with computers? If so, when? If not, why not?”
Kali Pizzaro: not for me
Profdan Netizen: CR: when we’ll feel comfortable with neural interfaces?
Profdan Netizen: Hard to say.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Moderator address is http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Claudia13 Rossini: we take drugs…neural implants aren’t that much different in the end
Profdan Netizen: CR: Rats are one thing, to people?
Profdan Netizen: CR: levels of risk, hard to see it happening too soon.
Kali Pizzaro: PC- i agree maybe a step to far
Kali Pizzaro: at the moment
Kali Pizzaro: maybe 20-30 years but will the human become less and will the machines evolve?
AJ Brooks: Make sure to vote on the questions that are posted in the Moderator. http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44 or post your own
stiofainx Rau: yes a suit and 3d glasses first
Moyra Ares: once we accept artificial organs we might accept something like inplants?
Profdan Netizen: CR: a key thing that might happen, if it can be done noninvasively, something outside the body that can monitor brain waves, nerve impulses.
Claudia13 Rossini: they are already doing some of that with magnetic fields
Profdan Netizen: Caprica–dream state.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: “Might we soon see a purely public sector ownership of a virtual world infrastructure serving public functions such as health informatics, and education?”
toBe Destiny: yep
Profdan Netizen: CR: no tech obstacle, falls into category of being able to grasp value of tech already in front of us.
toBe Destiny: … yes this is a difficulty proposition
Profdan Netizen: CR: changing the thinking of govt. or public institution on the level of changing thinking of military or defense institution.
Kali Pizzaro: PC- they are running around in a empty room
Profdan Netizen: Do they have goggles on?
toBe Destiny: not fully
Kali Pizzaro: and they can see what they would be doing in the VW
toBe Destiny: the issue is about public sector with no private sector
Kali Pizzaro: PC- i am not sure public sector needs to own more about how they use
toBe Destiny: why not disallow the private ownership of a communication medium
Kali Pizzaro: is this not happening?
toBe Destiny: it is moving in this direction
Kali Pizzaro: with educational grids
toBe Destiny: yes with educational grids
Kali Pizzaro: PC- the public highway was to transport defense 😉
toBe Destiny: yes
Kali Pizzaro: PC- maybe if it is critical then maybe the government will want to own
toBe Destiny: nationalising the backbone
toBe Destiny: has important up sides
stiofainx Rau: id say porn was just as influential as gov or military input as a driving force
toBe Destiny: as I have proposed to President Obama
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: “How do you feel 3D training compares today to 2D training (like Webex), in terms of the tools available and the results that you can get today?
toBe Destiny: ..listens
Profdan Netizen: CR: 3D has immense possibilities, not an either/or question.
Profdan Netizen: use 2D when better suited, or good enough.
Profdan Netizen: CR: 3D experimentation or experiencing things not possible for some reason in RL.
Kali Pizzaro: PC- i agree
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: “How can what you are currently doing inform and impact higher education. In other words, what going on “there” always happens before it happens “here” (meaning higher ed) so what do we have to look forward to?”
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Yay AJ
AJ Brooks waves
Margaret Michalski: waves back to AJ : )
Profdan Netizen: CR: not a one way flow–lot of trickle down from entertainment and gaming.
Profdan Netizen: CR: more sophisticated, complicated from govt.
Kali Pizzaro: PC- well i think you are doing some off it now
Kali Pizzaro: PC- using IM or local chat which can be captured, and done at a distance
Kali Pizzaro: PC- I think the 3d adds to the 2d
Profdan Netizen: Happened with me on Tuesday evening, students had class, didn’t have to drive in the blizzard!
Kali Pizzaro: scenario building, simulation etc
Kali Pizzaro: PC- so I think it is the natural migration to 3d from 2d,
Grizzla Pixelmaid: But we don’t want to end up like the blobbly people in Wal-E. 😉
Kali Pizzaro: PC- however, sometimes we need that or want that face to face contact
Profdan Netizen: more of a sense of place and person.
Kali Pizzaro: PC- the spacial awareness is important and the immersion
Kali Pizzaro: and it is cost effective
Profdan Netizen: CR: VW–discovered a new continent and explore, or choose to ignore.
Kali Pizzaro: agree
Profdan Netizen: CR: relationships are much stronger in VW,.
toBe Destiny: nicebit why not think about senses that are not business sense
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: no dreads 🙂
Profdan Netizen: CR: much discussion about what avies should look like.
toBe Destiny: we have real needs that business should not be involved in
Profdan Netizen: CR: disagree with avies looking like self.
toBe Destiny: like voting
Ignatius Onomatopoeia wore a suit today 🙂
Profesora Farigoule: agree 100%
Claudia13 Rossini: (removed my wrinkles)
Profdan Netizen: CR: choice of avie look tells more about person than realism.
Sheila Yoshikawa: agree with that!
Profdan Netizen: CR: and enhances relationship building.
Jennette Forager: And ahem…they are so young, Iggy.
Jennette Forager: 😉
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: `We might run a few minutes over…want to thank everyone for all the questions they posted.
Sheila Yoshikawa: though also may it be that with younger people there are sometimes more worries about looking too “original”, not wanting to stand out? Whereas some of us are quirky types that want to look like we want 😉
Profdan Netizen: CR: one other point: often a hot discussion about authentication vs. anonymity.
Profdan Netizen: both have value.
Profdan Netizen: CR: defense must know who’s talking to whom.
Profdan Netizen: However, even within such, still might want situations with a townhall where anonymous conversation might be more open.
Claudia13 Rossini: always have 2 av’s
Profdan Netizen: CR: work avie, personal avie, the latter is the real me.
Kali Pizzaro: ;_
Profesora Farigoule: me too !!! the real me is the other Av
Kali Pizzaro: 😉
Kali Pizzaro: yep
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Definitely!
Profdan Netizen: CR: my private avie needs a place to hide from work related questions/interactions.
Kali Pizzaro: PC- I like one of Charles quotes, ” its all real”
Profesora Farigoule: likewise with students === I can be online and be free of student issues with other av
Profdan Netizen: CR: It’s all real.
Kali Pizzaro: all real
Grizzla Pixelmaid: LOL
Claudia13 Rossini: lol
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: excellent. We have been debating this in the class
Profdan Netizen: CR: is talking on the telephone real? PDFs? money? Real estate?
Bridge McMahon: as soon as one is immersed, then they forget that it’s not real
Profdan Netizen: Waht’s real?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: gold is real 🙂
Profdan Netizen: CR: everything up to now is real.
Profdan Netizen: CR: it’s not a game.
Profdan Netizen: CR: Treat people with respect, it’s a real place.
Profdan Netizen: CR: One life, not two.
Profdan Netizen: CR: it’s probably best to be yourself when dealing with others in VW.
Bridge McMahon: you’ve been immersed andrew 🙂
Claudia13 Rossini: we are often 2 people anyway…in r/l our business self…and then our private lives
Kali Pizzaro: yep a great leveler
Gloria Mills: lol Bridge
Bridge McMahon: oops meant Charles3D
Profdan Netizen: CR: found in VW you can enter a situation with no history, degrees, who you become all based on what you do, who you hang out with.
Profdan Netizen: CR: an incredible validation of self.
Kali Pizzaro: PC- to build on that to have the ability to match patterns on the net
Kali Pizzaro: it might be impossible to keep lives separate
Kali Pizzaro: everything is entangled
toBe Destiny: entanglement is good
Margaret Michalski: Thanks Iggy
toBe Destiny: and self orchistration
Profdan Netizen: And we’re all entangled!
Kali Pizzaro: woop
toBe Destiny: was nice
Kali Pizzaro: indeed
Claudia13 Rossini: excellent!
Gloria Mills: Yes, interesting talk
Bridge McMahon: cheering!
Margaret Michalski: thank you pcguru and Chalres
JeanClaude Vollmar claps
Birdie Newcomb: tyty
Jennette Forager applauds.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: thank you!
Wrenaria Antiesse: thanks all
JeanClaude Vollmar: Thanks!
Margaret Michalski: claps
Mojave Shepherd: Thank you very much!
Sam55 Chester: Thanks
Kali Pizzaro: cheers folks
Addison Greymyst: Thank you – applause
Bridge McMahon: thanks so great to hear it’s the future
Margaret Michalski: Thanks Iggy! Good job
stiofainx Rau: thanks guys great prognosticating
Kali Pizzaro: no topic at the mo
Kali Pizzaro: i think
Profdan Netizen: excellent discussion
Kali Pizzaro: i will send out the facebook soon
Claudia13 Rossini: get these guys back!
Bridge McMahon: oooo
Margaret Michalski: CLAPS FOR KALI AND PROFDAN!
Kali Pizzaro: thanks Margaret
Profdan Netizen: Thanks Margaret.