VWER Meeting Transcripts by Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License.
Based on a work at www.vwer.org.
Transcript of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable August 2, 2012
Topic: “What features would educators put into a new virtual world?”
Special Note: Late-arriving link for this discussion, via the SLED list. Thanks to slwidget for “Is there a Virtual Mars in your Future?” Alan Boyle audio-interviews George Djorgovski about using virtual worlds for teaching science.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Hello everyone and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable! Our topic today is “What features would educators put into a new virtual world?”
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: This is a public meeting in TEXT CHAT, so we will be keeping and publishing a transcript of what is said. If you’ve not seen our transcripts, you should check them out – they are an excellent information asset.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I’m Joe Essid, Writing Center Director at the University of Richmond. I’ve finished a semester with students using immersive literary build based on Poe’s “Fall of the House of Usher” in Jokaydia Grid. You’ll find a version in SL too,
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Thanks to the goodwill of Kali Pizzaro and Glasgow Caledonian University.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: A bit about this group, if you are new to VWER:
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: The VWER meets each Thursday at 11:30am SLT for an hour and is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Our group has met every week for over three years and we get a wide variety of educators, from seasoned veterans to the newly rezzed.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: The transcripts can be found at our newly updated web site – http://www.vwer.org
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Please join the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable group here in SL. If you are on Facebook, please join our group there – Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: You can also find and post pictures to our Flickr and Koinup groups and follow us on Twitter @VWER. When you blog or tweet, please remember to include the tag #vwer
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Today I’ll add a special note about why I chose this topic. For a while I have been exploring Glitch, a browser-based,
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: side-scrolling game that has a sense of whimsy and creativity that is appealing. See http://glitch.com for more on it.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: This lead me to write two posts about what we in education might do if WE created the platform instead of using someone else’s technology.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: My thoughts can be found at http://bit.ly/OFJuRR and
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: http://bit.ly/MoeXUv so have a look while we begin. I will also sum them up on two sign-boards I rezzed earlier.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Now, let’s begin as we always do, and introduce ourselves.
Claudia13 Rossini: Claudia – insane builder
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): don’t be shy…type away!
Vic Michalak: Phil Youngblood, Chair, Computer Information Systems, University of the Incarnate Word, San Antonio, Texas
Liana Hubbenfluff: I have been in SL for 3 years enjoying the play and meeting people from all over. I teach courses at Montana State University in the summers. I work in the field of biomimicry, translating science to designers and the lay public.
Esparanza Freese: is Hope Botterbusch, Tampa Bay, Florida
JeanClaude Vollmar: Hi. I’m Jeff Le Blanc from the University of Northwestern Ohio. I’m their VP for IT.
Rebekah Cavan: Rebekah Cavan, aka Pat Rapp – Journal of Virtual Worlds and Education.
Camie Rembrandt: afk
Alan Sandalwood: Alan Haywood Teacher and Consultant
Sheila Yoshikawa: I teach and research in the iSchool at the University of Sheffield, UK, and own Infolit iSchool island
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Chris Robinson, Virtual Assistant, Georgia Gwinnett College – and occasional head-gardener.
Birdie Newcomb: Birdie Newborn, learning about digital books
Eli (eliana.zaytsev): eliana, minister and facilitator for SpiritVenture Ministries in virtual worlds
Zotarah Shepherd: I am working on an MA in Education Technology at Sonoma State University in northern California. I finished all my classes. My Thesis project: Teaching and Learning Life Awareness & Success Skills in Virtual Worlds.
Svea Morane: Brian Kaihoi, Mayo Clinic College of Medicine
Tori Landau: Patricia Dean student with the Open University and volunteer event coordinator for their Deep Think campus in SL
Mai (maimoamimo): im Seconld life Developer for Tennessee State University in Nashville
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): I see a few typing hands…anyone else?
Galileo Zeplin: Ed Johnson, Board of Regents, University System of Georgia
Text Timeless: = Bola King-Rushing, Instructional Technologist at Oxnard College (California)
DoctorTheopolis: I assist mai at tsu
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): 23 already on the sim!
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): not bad for August. Anyone else?
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Going once…
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Going (even) twice…
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): SOLD to Her Majesty, Claudia Rossini!
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Really! Great crowd
Claudia13 Rossini: lol
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): To start, I pulled up my shorter list…the technical ideals I’d prefer if I were building a virtual world
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): but all of us have different needs. before we talk about in-world experiences and content such as permissions, zoning, etc., let’s first think about
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): where and how we’d like to experience a virtual world if WE build it, not a commercial entity
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): so let fly…what are your most important technical requirements for a virtual world?
Liana Hubbenfluff: Iggy, what do you mean by Browser based?
Birdie Newcomb: lowtech entry
Liana Hubbenfluff: 🙂
Claudia13 Rossini: that it works on my Mac
Liana Hubbenfluff: yes!!! lol
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Liana, like Glitch or Unity, it would run right away with (maybe) a small plug-in
Liana Hubbenfluff: ok thx!
Birdie Newcomb: any Mac, any smartphone
Svea Morane: voice capabilities
Text Timeless: Ease of use / not intimidating interface and controls
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Cloud Party is Browser based too. SL needs a client, as does OpenSim
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Mac, iPad, iPhone, android phones, integrated graphics cards.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): so far those all are on my list over there
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): anything I forgot that this a technical requirement?
Svea Morane: non-mesh build options
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Guess I should wait till it rezzes!!!
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Yes, Svea. That is actually on my NEXT sign 🙂
Svea Morane: 🙂 sorry
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): LOL Dan. I’ll read it
Claudia13 Rossini: i don’t really care if it’s browser based or not…just give me an easy install and easy access…and a clean viewer, not cluttered with visuals
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): What do you guys mean by non-mesh build options? Most of what’s in SL isn’t mesh.
Tori Landau: accessibility taken into account
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): No, Svea, it’s a great point and we need to talk about it
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): How so, Tori?
Claudia13 Rossini: i’m with you there Svea
Birdie Newcomb: skip the lag
Svea Morane: correct Grizzia…. but some worlds.. require mesh builds.. which are much more complicated to do
Praxislady Witt: is not being a party pooper, but what can we do to enhance virtual worlds vs what we want it to do for us, maybe??
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): My four are Laptop + Wireless friendly, Fast & Easy Start, Cross-Platform use, and Browser-based
Claudia13 Rossini: and in my opinion tend to be less then desirable visually
Birdie Newcomb: Good start, Iggy
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): But I would still include integrated graphics card friendly.
Claudia13 Rossini: definitely cross platform
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): The devil is in the details – there are many elements of SL’s user interface that are hard for newbies – tiny gray buttons hard to see, even largest text is small
Tori Landau: I can’t answer exactly Iggy but friends have said it would be good if the standard viewer gave more options re accessibility rather than having to use other viewers
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Praxislady, I’m not sure how that differs…
Alan Sandalwood: I agree with Dan. SL on an onboard graphic chip looks hideous
Tori Landau: i can ask around
Claudia13 Rossini: except on the older viewers Griz
JeanClaude Vollmar: @Profdan, Yes, integrated friendly.
Rebekah Cavan: cross platform, but also cross-worlds – the ability to move your objects and inventory to multiple worlds would be great
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So something like text-to-speech for the visually impaired?
Birdie Newcomb: hypergrid acomin’
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): True, but new folks aren’t likely to go looking for the old viewers
Eli (eliana.zaytsev): @rebekah, yes to cross-worlds
Tori Landau: yes to Iggy, that would be great
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Rebakah, I’d love that but only educators could build it. I don’t think commercial builders would touch that
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): And speech to text, Iggy, for the aurally impaired.
Vic Michalak: re: the lag…. have to develop a way so that a rich 3D world can be rendered like a web page, without need of a high end computer and fast connection. Unity 3D (such as in “TheBlu”) may be the closest thing we have so far.
Mai (maimoamimo): sorry to change the subject a bit, but i think the ability to upload course materials and present them in world directly. with out haveing to do a runaround through a third party would be top of the list.
Claudia13 Rossini: but since we are talking ‘new VW’…we could ignore a lindened viewer
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): nods. So we’ve added accessibility and multiple ways to build to the list
Mai (maimoamimo): videos audio, powerpoint…
Sheila Yoshikawa: I’ll just say that I have different requirements depending on whether I’m thinking about a VW for my use, and one I can use in teaching e.g. for me personally downloading and executing yet another app is no big deal – it’s just when we have to get it on the uni desktop that it becomes a real pain. If students WERE increasingly using their own devices (which actually they are not necessarily doing at the moment, not all of them by any means) if we were talking about students with their own devices, then I think downloading/updating an app would no longer be such a deal in teaching either
Sheila Yoshikawa: sorry that ended up rather long!
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Mai, that’s a great feature and not a change of subject. I think it needs to go on the list
Alan Sandalwood: @Mal. Do you mean integration with VLE’s or somthing simpler?
Rebekah Cavan: I would love to see us move away from powerpoint and truly take advantage of the 3d environment
Vic Michalak: Yes, a way to be able to use existing software (files with common extensions).
Birdie Newcomb: a vw as app, yes
Alan Sandalwood: Embedded webpages, including flash
Rebekah Cavan: an app would be awesome, but I have trouble enough with my laptop overheating. I suspect VWs as they are now would kill my droid.
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): I would like to see media on a prim to operate like a f2f classroom computerdia projector, where what I put on the screen is exactly, and at the same time, what students see.
Rebekah Cavan: nods
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Has anyone else tried Lumiya? (speaking of droids)
Rebekah Cavan: I agree with Prof Dan
Vic Michalak: Whatever the world is, it would need a sponsor that favored innovative and fun education and training, not just catering to frivolous entertainment.
Alan Sandalwood: Integration with Kinect and Leap type interfaces
Eli (eliana.zaytsev): grizzla yes,, just tried it
Eli (eliana.zaytsev): decent, i hear much improvement is coming
Rebekah Cavan: Kinect integration is a great idea, Alan
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Agreed, Alan.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So we need to add in-world media, possible integration with CMSes or other VLEs to our list.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): anything else technical, if we had time and money to do it ourselves from Scratch?
Mai (maimoamimo): well i hate having to use something like ustream or you tube for that matter. i would just love to upload a movie or audio clip or ppt file and have it work in my classrooms. its a dram of mine to have it that simple
Mai (maimoamimo): simple*
Sheila Yoshikawa: hmm I’m not so sure about integration with VLEs
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Sheila, why not? I’m summing up what someone else said in chat here
Rebekah Cavan: what are VLEs?
Claudia13 Rossini: technical or not…i’d like top notch design of the viewer, browser based or not
Sheila Yoshikawa: thinking aloud really – I’m not sure Blackboard integrates with anything much, myself
Alan Sandalwood: VLEs is an laternative name for Learning Management Systems such as Moodlçe, Blackboard
Sheila Yoshikawa: you can link things to it and upload stuff and use its features
Esparanza Freese: @ Rebekah Virtual Learning Environments
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): VLE = virtual learning environment
Vic Michalak: The more natural the better — walk, talk, gesture, interact. This would attract more users without having to overcome the technical barrier.
Sheila Yoshikawa: however I suppose I would rather have a virtual world that WAS teh VLE/LMS
Rebekah Cavan: ty
Eli (eliana.zaytsev): you should look at EZ Prez tools on spoton3d synergy,, some great things.. including built in ‘white’board
Sheila Yoshikawa: and discard Blackboard as Old Technology
Text Timeless: Sheila, does Sloodle fit that bill for you?
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): WIth rich integration of 2D Web content, the VW would indeed become the VLE..good point, Sheila
Mai (maimoamimo): yes… i dont really need to get to complicated with my VLE.s its just that my faculty members are new to SL and it would be nice for them to not have to learn so many steps.
Alan Sandalwood: @Sheila. That would be a dream but many people already haveinvested considerably in current generation VLEs
Birdie Newcomb: Personally, I would do away with the age limit of 18 — open as the Internet is open
Mai (maimoamimo): and if they could upload there own materials then that would make my life alot easier…
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): puts the first sign back into inventory and raises the next hone
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): *one
Mai (maimoamimo): im a one man show so i have to do everything… build and adminster and train.
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): It would be valuable to have students be able to submit a notecard in world that shows up/can be graded in the 2D CMS. I know it’s possible with Sloodle, but our campus uses d2l. Don’t want students to have to learn a new CMS.
Vic Michalak: I have been trying to get our university to become involved in SL for 5 years. Making some progress, but greatest barriers are the interface (too hard to learn, let alone learn to build) and “game”-like appearance.
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Text haven’t really looked at it in enough detail, but perhaps it is looking at integrating SL into Moodle, whereas my ideal would have the VW as the main focus
Sheila Yoshikawa: if we are talking ideals ;-))
Text Timeless: good point, and important distinction there. Plus Moodle isn’t to my taste anyway for LMSs
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Notecards that one can add links and formatting to would be cool as well.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Okay…this sign sums up some of the things I loved about other VWs, and even games like Glitch
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Some may need explaining.
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): I think part (not all!) of the “too hard to learn” is that SL introductions tend to not be aimed toward how someone is going to USE SL.
DoctorTheopolis: i think note cards could use an overhaul.. there convenient but rather clumsy
Claudia13 Rossini: nods to Grizzy
Text Timeless: Can “local hosting” and “contiguous world” coexist?
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): By “easy permissions” I mean that ownership could be transferred fully in collaborative builds, which remain so hard to transfer and share
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Text, I think so.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): If you used an island metaphor, I could sail from the ocean around my continent on my server to yours
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Waht do you mean by contiguous worlds, Iggy?
Mai (maimoamimo): tyvm everyone for your time. i must be leaving i have too poof.
Text Timeless: OK, I could see that working
Tori Landau: Bye Mai!
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Dan It’s cool and it does not “Break the metaphor,” to use Neal Stephenson’s term from Snow Crash
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): thanks for coming, Mai!
Claudia13 Rossini: VW’s need to be like the web…the ability to move from server to serve easily
Alan Sandalwood: Local hosting is wonderful. I have a minigrid on my home PC and worl a lot there
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): I see, rather than teleportation.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So a better notecard system is something to add. @Dan, I could see many types of travel..teleports, walking, vehicles to maximize user creativity
Claudia13 Rossini: well right now…you can usually move around in SL from server to server…
Birdie Newcomb: Interesting — how does moving from server to server work?
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): And clearer user interface, Iggy. No microscopic icons & buttons.
Alan Sandalwood: If we’re talking browser/viewer. A way to move sub menus etc out of the main viewing area
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): That’s true, Claudia. It’s one think about SL and many other worlds I love
Claudia13 Rossini: it’s the internet…servers are mostly all connected
Alan Sandalwood: zoomable icons and menus
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Agreed, the option to travel by vehicle–ground, air, water, space–would be cool.
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): prefers teleporting instead of messing w vehicles
Sheila Yoshikawa: I would also want an economy – a means of people getting paid for their intellectual/creative efforts if they want to be, inworld
Claudia13 Rossini: see now i could care less about ‘transport’…i prefer tp’s
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): In SL, region crosses have been a problem for a while. Your data is handed off from one server to another, sometimes creating a disaster. Having it be as natural as moving across a room would be my ideal
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): You can move from server to server in SL, as long as you don’t go too fast!!!!
Sheila Yoshikawa: I know some people dislike “commercialism” but personally I think people should be rewarded for their time if they want to be
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Claudia, it would matter if you did a BIG simulation of, say, the pioneer experience or a large game
Claudia13 Rossini: now i never have problems tp’ing from server to server
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Oh yeah, that would be kinda anachronistic
Tori Landau: sim crossing while flying a plane can be ‘interesting’ so agree about going slow °͜°
Text Timeless: Teleportation is convenient, but for exploring a world as large as SL I love flight
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Sheila, in Glitch you are rewarded. You get levels, quests, even a bit of in-world money. Students love that
Birdie Newcomb: from my server to your server?
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Iggy I meant having a marketplace, for people selling their creations, not the same thing as being rewarded for doing game-set tasks?
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So we’ve added ease of movement to the list, clearer icons and menus….what else?
Rebekah Cavan: Creating a new world is intriguing, but the best feature of sl is it’s vastness. There is an enormous amount to see and do here.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Okay, Rebekah…a new edu world needs to be BIG
Rebekah Cavan: HUGE
Birdie Newcomb: Or connectible
Rebekah Cavan: lol
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Ginormous
Rebekah Cavan: 🙂
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): OSGrid is that size, I think, but sparsely populated
Claudia13 Rossini: (unlimited prims…or at least 5 times more then SL offers)
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): and very active.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): how important is a big population? Dan you seem to be saying “very”
Rebekah Cavan: Or as Birdie said – connectible. If taking field trips to sl would work, it wouldn’t have to be ginormous
Claudia13 Rossini: population is important
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): For me, I’m after simulations, not worlds, so it doesn’t matter at all. Buf if I wanted a world…it would be.
Svea Morane: Many of us want a virtual word to replace the Web as we know it, and all our applications, because it “feels” better to live digitally here than to be separate with your computer
Claudia13 Rossini: a world with few people doesn’t remain viable for long
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): I am, not so much world wide, but where events are taking place–the interaction with others is quite valuable and creates immersion more than pretty sims.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So, Svea, would you like VR rigs, goggles, etc?
Claudia13 Rossini: nods to Svea
Tori Landau: going to ask a question here, why are the prim and avatar limits what they are sims, is it a server space issue? I’m not a techie and have always wondered
Sheila Yoshikawa: it’s not just about population, it’s also about different and contrasting, interesting environments
Sheila Yoshikawa: so I think both are valuable
Svea Morane: I have rigs and googles.. on devices in my virtual SL office 🙂
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): good Q, Tori. This is when I wish Pathfinder were here
Claudia13 Rossini: plus, low population, low number of the best creators
Zotarah Shepherd: Too many or too high arc created lag
Svea Morane: Tori.. it is server processor limits that are the issue….bigger processors remove the limits
Zotarah Shepherd: The more you see the harder your computer has to work to render all of it
Claudia13 Rossini: where’s Moore’s Law when we need it
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So…how many avatars would you like in a region, max? 200? 500?
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Re lag – I’ve only spent a little time in WoW (at the VWBPE guided tour) but we had DOZENS of people on the tour and no lag. I wish we could do that in SL.
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): I agree, Sheila, that both are valuable. But I know for me, and my online students, being able to go to gatherings of writers, educators, scholars, journalists, scientists and so on is what enhances their experience beyond just what we do together in the virtual classroom.
Tori Landau: TY Svea
Birdie Newcomb: What if it were more like the phone company — just a way of connecting with others, as with a “conference call”
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): How many avatars depends on what you want to be able to do! 🙂
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): For now, my students would resist (mightily) any sort of rig or goggle. That may change. Their phones are part of their bodies already.
Rebekah Cavan: I think the prim/lag issue with sl as compared to WoW is that the builds here are all hand made, as opposed to a game world where the builds are prepackaged.
Sheila Yoshikawa: I was thinking e.g. of taking a magic carpet tour through al-andalus – it was a shared cultural experience
Claudia13 Rossini: we’ll not need rigs…just a little implanted chip
Text Timeless: @Birdie: I think if it were seen as just another teleconferencing tool, some instructors would dismiss it as unnecessarily complex technology
Zotarah Shepherd: WoW does not have tools for people to create or import textures etc, so lag can be less with many avatars.
Rebekah Cavan: Rezzing a game world allows for caching, I believe.
Svea Morane: Claudia.. we should talk.. I’ve done the chip thing.. it is cool :0
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): http://bigthink.com/inside-singularity-university/sight-the-implications-of-virtual-reality
Vic Michalak: We need to be able to accommodate the same number of avatars in a region as there might be in a similar sized region in First Life…
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Claudia, I won’t live long enough for that, thank God. It’s M.T. Anderson’s Feed at work (a novel to read, NOW)
Claudia13 Rossini: oh definately Svea!
JeanClaude Vollmar: How about portable avis, like the Wii. I can pack my Mii onto my controller and take it to another Wii and there I am. Or, maybe that’s like floating our inventories across VWs
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): check out the short film in the above link. Contacts as the point of access to vw/augmented reality.
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): That makes sense, Rebekah – and even though WoW has, for example, a lot of textures, it’s still a limited number instead of ever-increasing
Vic Michalak: @JeanClaude — that is a good idea – an avatar that you can import into different worlds that represents you and that you can modify “offline”.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So what is not on my list + the addenda I noted? What else would YOU create for a new VW?
JeanClaude Vollmar: Yeah Vic. I have a different avi for every VW I visit.
Claudia13 Rossini: design Iggy…high end design
Birdie Newcomb: Or each his/her own grid, to connect or not as appropriate.
Graham Mills: maybe avatar puppeteering — did you get that?
Graham Mills: http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Claudia, could you give us an example of what you mean by high end design?
Text Timeless: Alternative physics areas for doing things like simulations for lad courses in chemistry or marine studies
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Claudia, I’d LOVE that too…but how to enforce it in a user-generated world? Skyrim can have it but players don’t get to build.
Rebekah Cavan: Kinect-based avatar puppeteering
Text Timeless: *lab courses
Rebekah Cavan: Or even using your webcam
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Text, yes…better physics. For literary simulations I would add HUDs with health, injury, and so on.
Graham Mills: GPS-enabled viewer
Vic Michalak: @Text… we were talking about that at a MICA meeting last night. If we are building our own world, we need to be able to set values for gravity and other physical parameters.
Claudia13 Rossini: well.look at an iPad, iPhone…Mac….the visuals are crisp and clear, every thing is easy to use….no 6 mile long lists like the newer viewers…design….
Text Timeless: exactly
Sheila Yoshikawa: did my market-economy plea get quashed? 😉
Graham Mills: is it based on euros?
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): votes for the market economy
Svea Morane: we need an economy Sheila.. that is for sure
Rebekah Cavan: I think a vw has to have an economy where people can be paid for their creativity
Birdie Newcomb: SL is built to be simulations, which is why people build builldings and stairs. That works for some education, but is not necessary7 for all.
Vic Michalak: @Sheila, not at all… economic incentive is a good thing, provided it is not the only thing…
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia) grins at Sheila and thinks of how well the Market economy did in 2009
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Agreed, Claudia, where movement/operation within a vw doesn’t take weeks to get used to.
Claudia13 Rossini: (then i’ll start in on build designs and textures once this fantasy vw is built)
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Vic oh yes of course
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): I don’t think I’d trust them with my VW, at all. I want it free and open source
Gabo (gabonux): like a hypergrid connected to osngrid, based in open sim, but the limititationn is the hardware you need to run a descent sim capable of hosted many avis simultaneously
JeanClaude Vollmar: I think Sheila has a good point. Just don’t make the economy so tightly coupled to the creator to render objects useless like it is in SL.
Gabo (gabonux): sorry ny english is not too good
Graham Mills: run it in the cloud on demand like Kitely?
Claudia13 Rossini: exactly Dan….good design is hard…but i think very important…it ends up making a VW easy or hard to use
JeanClaude Vollmar: Permissions need to be better crafted to be more like RL
Text Timeless doesn’t trust the cloud yet
Alan Sandalwood: Hardware: usually 1GB Ram and 1 modern core for a sim region
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @JC, that’s one of my big problems with SL. A student builder leaves and we can do nothing with the content
Gabo (gabonux): 1GB how much avis
Svea Morane: you are exactly right Claudia – design is key… not just graphics, but experience design
Rebekah Cavan: Agree with Birdie – there is a lot of recreating buildings/stairs/powerpoints that could be done differently. this space is completely open to creativity, yet people build what is familiar. A little more in-between real and fantastic would be my preference
Claudia13 Rossini: and something that will run on older computers
JeanClaude Vollmar: @Iggy, exactly
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): If creation could be re-assigned, it would help immensely. That’s the market-based models fault. I want a TRUE commons
JeanClaude Vollmar: Agreed!
Tori Landau: Collaborative builds are a nightmare even when have full permission over each other’s stuff, the scripts still don’t open most of the time even when full perm so fully agree
Alan Sandalwood: Thje rule of thumb is for a ‘normal’ sim. SO, I guess 10-20 avis.
Text Timeless: @Rebekah – but that’s partly just the users’ issues; they need to have an environment in which they feel comfy so they don’t get bogged down by fantastic elements…
Birdie Newcomb: Floating points of light in vast emptiness might be useful, for astronomy.
Claudia13 Rossini: you need at minimum 100 avs on a sim
Alan Sandalwood: Sorry, I’ don’t remember the exact number, look up Ener Hax’s blog, she has the information
Rebekah Cavan: true, but many replications are difficult to navigate. ie, stairs
Claudia13 Rossini: that has to do with my comments on design Rebekah
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Tori, I’d think a new world could solve the problem we see with scripts and prims. You could set permissions to either protect a creator’s IP or enable full sharing.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Including off-world backup and export to other compatible worlds
Rebekah Cavan: @Claudia – ok, I thought you were referring to the user interface design: menus, etc.
Claudia13 Rossini: i’m refering to both actually
Tori Landau: that would be wonderful
Gabo (gabonux): so sorry I have to go rl call me
Rebekah Cavan: nods
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So…15 minutes left…What have we NOT covered today?
Tori Landau: bye Gabo!
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): thank you for joining us, Gabo!
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Glad you could come, Gabo!
Claudia13 Rossini: i see no need to build ugly shopping malls in both worlds
Rebekah Cavan: that brings up a good point – shopping is a pain
Svea Morane is relieved… no hair shopping in the new VW 🙂
Liana Hubbenfluff: I like this discussion but where is it going?
Sheila Yoshikawa: lol there we disagree
Claudia13 Rossini: well we do need to arm ourselves Iggy, if we’re taking over the VW’s….raygun orders should be in by august 21st
Liana Hubbenfluff: oh taking over, okay! with ya there!
Rebekah Cavan: honestly, i’d rather shop for clothes, hair and skin on a website rather than walk for miles in a virtual shop
Tori Landau: has the giggles rl re rayguns
Svea Morane: i need teh walk Rebekah.. so my daughter can do with and help 🙂
Tori Landau: i use marketplace for most stuff
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Liana…you never know. One of us may build the next VW for education. Our voices are rarely heard by developers
Liana Hubbenfluff: ah! 🙂 cool
Birdie Newcomb: We should talk with the griefers — theyre the most innovative one’s I’ve seen.
Birdie Newcomb: most
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid) prefers her exploding taco gun
Claudia13 Rossini: assigns Grizzy to protect our rear
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So…no one has touched (bad metaphor) the adult-content issue.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): Does an educational world need it?
Svea Morane: perks up 🙂 where?
Birdie Newcomb: hey, that’s part of education
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): LOL
Liana Hubbenfluff: rofl
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): LOL
Tori Landau: unless for education?
Claudia13 Rossini: because Iggy, the world is full of adult content….r/l, internet vw’s…i just ignore it
Rebekah Cavan: Just like teaching little kids about using the web – have to teach the college students to be savvy in their explorations
Liana Hubbenfluff: hmm trying to imagine how that is used in education
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): I said “freedom of or from it.” I’m thinking that some adult content connected to the curriculum would be appropriate, otherwise, no.
Liana Hubbenfluff: are we worried about young kids or adults?
Svea Morane: Liana.. let me talk with you about medical school topics 🙂
Liana Hubbenfluff: 🙂
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Liana, depends on what kind of education
Liana Hubbenfluff: I see ^^
Tori Landau: ah, agrees with Iggy
Claudia13 Rossini: ok, why is violence ok but Iggy points out ….s e x
Liana Hubbenfluff: there will always be this problem
Birdie Newcomb: growing up — what parent really controls that?
Svea Morane: Iggy.. agree. No matter the content type.. people need to know what it is and choose
Rebekah Cavan: I’ve been in sl since 2006 and have only once stumbled into a porn region by accident. it’s just like the internet. If you look, you’ll find it. If not, it’s unlikely.
Liana Hubbenfluff: I think that’s a small problem really
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): LOL my students want violence in SL but when they encounter the sex that say “ewwwwww Creepy old folks”
Liana Hubbenfluff: lol
Birdie Newcomb: lol
Sheila Yoshikawa: as with internet filtering, too much restriction causes issues that inhibit learning
Claudia13 Rossini: (i don’t know about the rest of you, but my parents had sex to get me….and it took 4 years to do it)
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): I think one reason the adult content thing in SL is more challenging, is that initially it’s so easy to stumble into it without wanting to
Svea Morane: funny, Iggy…. my RL kids say the same thing :0
Sheila Yoshikawa: alsdo agree with Rebekah
Tori Landau: agree Grizzla, was easier in past before the A rating came in and was on mature rated sims
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Grizzla is that still the case with the special continent etc.?
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): agrees with Sheila. But a policy such as LL’s works well. And remember, not all adult content means porn. It could be nudity in a painting
Liana Hubbenfluff: @Claudia hahaa
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): and if a VW admits very young students, even that can be an issue
Liana Hubbenfluff: I think bullying is more of a problem than sex in SL
Rebekah Cavan: Nudity in a painting is not “adult content” in my opinion.
Claudia13 Rossini: i say flood em with porn, they’ll be bored in a few weeks
Liana Hubbenfluff: lol
Rebekah Cavan: We snickered at teh statue of David in fourth grade, but it wasn’t inappropriate.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): nor for me, Rebekah. But it could be to parents of some K-12 students who use a VW. That’s why a consistent policy would help
Tori Landau: there is a club I went to, G rated, with a nude painting… someone complained so the owner stuck post it note type objects over the offending parts lol
Liana Hubbenfluff: I actually got threatened once in SL when a guy pulled a knife out after he didn’t like what I said
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Sheila, I’m even thinking of the Marketplace. The main page of the Marketplace has a woman reclined, wearing lingerie – even if you set the content level at G. that’s not exactly adult content, you could see it in any newspaper ad, but can be misleading if that’s part of someone’s intro to SL
Claudia13 Rossini: i think that’s an attitude that’s taught..sex is just part of like..
Sheila Yoshikawa: argh Liana!
Liana Hubbenfluff: I quit that sim and group
Liana Hubbenfluff: crazy person
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Well, the biggest issue with porn is whether or not administrators think the VW is all about porn. Building the ideal virtual world would give educators complete control over how to advertise/present their part without being subjected to the whim of the likes of LL.
Claudia13 Rossini: i just put fools like that on mute
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Grizzla, fair point. Actually the web based part may be more of an issue than inworld?
Rebekah Cavan: When my kids were in elementary school, I had to sign permission for them to go on the internet at school. If I hadn’t given them permission, they would have not been allowed.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): So…5 minutes. Any final questions? Concerns?
Rebekah Cavan: I think it’s ok to give parents an opt-out option, but we shouldn’t prevent the majority from doing something because some parents are afraid.
Sheila Yoshikawa: actually what this session has done for me, the most, is clarified that I would really, really like to have a VW as one of the key environments that ALL my students were using
Birdie Newcomb: Yes, if we’re talking about education, SL has limited it to college and agove. But we don’t have to.
Birdie Newcomb: above
Claudia13 Rossini: now i was allowed to read and look at anything as a kid…i read Fanny Hill and Lady Chatterly’s Lover at 12….and look how i turned out….wait…never mind
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): agrees w Rebekah
Sheila Yoshikawa: lol Claudia
Liana Hubbenfluff: good discussion and interesting links (as always!)
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): I’d add in deference to Sheila’s point about the market: it would fund our worlds but I worry about what we’d lose (Cross platform, local hosting, etc).
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Good point, C13
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): ducks
Claudia13 Rossini: pulls another carrot out of Grizzy’s head
Alan Sandalwood: I worry that we would try to do everything in Vw; It’s a tool to be used judiciously. My rule is to use it only if it cant be done in RL or on a lighter interent tool
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): OW
Claudia13 Rossini: too late Alan, technology just isn’t going to go away
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Yes, if it adds something to the ed experience.
Alan Sandalwood: I’m a technology advocate and champion
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Alan but if the VW became “lighter” then e.g. we might be able to rethink things in terms of the non f2f part of education
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Alan, that’s why I don’t see this as a replacement for the Internet. We’ll have to disagree with some of our colleagues here on that. I think we all spend too much time online as it is.
Alan Sandalwood: But people try to use the tools when they are inappropriate for the needs.
Claudia13 Rossini: hey…i work online
Birdie Newcomb: How’d you know ?
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Agreed, Alan, though the value of presence that is created in 3D vws compared to 2D tools is valuable in its own right.
Alan Sandalwood: e.g wifi laptops in large schools
Liana Hubbenfluff: I work online
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Iggy was “online” different from “the internet” in your last statement?
Alan Sandalwood: @Claudia. As do I for many of my students
Chimera Cosmos: gak – trouble logging in
Tori Landau: agrees with prof dan re presence
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): ? why are wifi laptops inappropriate for the needs?
Liana Hubbenfluff: Hi Chimera
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): @Sheila, it’s Turkle’s “always on, always on you” tech that terrifies me
Alan Sandalwood: @Prof Dan. Agreed
Alan Sandalwood: Appropriate use again
Chimera Cosmos: unless you have a really good signal, wifi is not so great
Liana Hubbenfluff: Humans have to learn appropriateness
Sheila Yoshikawa: @iggy but mobile phomes are more of an issue than VWs…?
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): To the point that we ignore the world that sustains us…that “nature thing” from which we are increasingly disconnected at our peril
Sheila Yoshikawa: phones
Alan Sandalwood: Problems with the connections and reliability.
Claudia13 Rossini: it’s making use of vw’s to enhance learning and understanding the world…creating new ideas…new answers to problems
Chimera Cosmos: I don’t see TV in the living room as any different, really, as far as a potential time sink
Liana Hubbenfluff: balance in all things Iggy
Alan Sandalwood: To use a laptop you have top buy a good one. Managers like to buy the cheapest possible
Liana Hubbenfluff: Sometimes you become an alcoholic, sometimes not
Rebekah Cavan: I agree to a point, Iggy. I’m a big nature girl. I work online all day, so I go hiking almost every night. Balance is good.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): agrees with that! Now next week (drumroll…..)
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Agree, Chimera – and at least VWs are interactive & social, not passive
Liana Hubbenfluff: @Grizz my point too!
Chimera Cosmos: you have to adopt and model good behavior 😉
Rebekah Cavan: I’d rather see people in world than sitting in front of tv passively.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): AJ will return! The topic is “Running meetings in VWs!” We need moderators! Please come to that one and learn about how to moderate a meeting in this place!
Sheila Yoshikawa: and without some of the irresponsibility of some tweeting/texting (“discuss”)
Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): I’d much rather have a group of 15 – 20 students working with me here in a VW, doing simple things like talking, writing, working in groups, than the current rage of MOOCs with a 100K students!!!!
Chimera Cosmos: Rebekah – huh??
Sheila Yoshikawa: @prof – very much agree
Claudia13 Rossini: <—is not allowed to moderate (end of the world possibilities)
Zotarah Shepherd: hehe
Sheila Yoshikawa: I don’t see that as a liberating trend altogether
Tori Landau: ok, feeling noobish here but what are MOOCs? °͜°
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia)wishes Claudia could moderate ONE meeting just to see what happens
Sheila Yoshikawa: massive online courses
Chimera Cosmos: no, and MOOC concept has been co-opted by conservative highered-hating types
Claudia13 Rossini: you’re in a variation of one Tori
Sheila Yoshikawa: um and something else beginning with O
Chimera Cosmos: balanced budgeters
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Claudia would no doubt get a griefer, like I did my first time moderating
Liana Hubbenfluff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_open_online_course
Liana Hubbenfluff: I had to look it up ^^
Camie Rembrandt: MOOOC: Massive Online Open Course
Zotarah Shepherd: I only see griefers at sandboxes these days
Rebekah Cavan: Chimera – I was agreeing that VWs are not different from having a TV on, but I prefer VW.
Iggy (ignatius.onomatopoeia): okay, friends. Our time is up! I need to go back to…getting ready for fall semester. See you next week~
Tori Landau: thanks again for explaining °͜°
Claudia13 Rossini: hey, you guys forget…AJ gave me powers here…any griefing of me…poof
Birdie Newcomb: griefers are people too
Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): LOL Birdie