August 30, 2012: Special Guests Tom Boellstorff & Celia Pearce

August 30th, 2012 | Posted by iggy in Transcripts

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Transcript of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable August 30, 2012

Topic: Special Guests Tom Boellstorff & Celia Pearce

Photos, by Grizzla and Wren. Please help us by joining our VWER groups at Flickr and Koinup to add your own pictures!

AJ Brooks: Hi everyone, and welcome to a special meeting of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable. Today’s Special Guests are Tom Boelstorff and Celia Pearce

AJ Brooks: The VWER meets each Thursday at 11:30am SLT for an hour and is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education.

AJ Brooks: Our group has met every week for over four years and we get a wide variety of educators, from seasoned veterans to the newly rezzed.

AJ Brooks: This is a public meeting, so we will be keeping and publishing a transcript of what is said in local chat. If you’ve not seen our transcripts, you should check them out – they are an excellent information asset

AJ Brooks: and a great historical reference. Via our web site, they are also searchable. The transcripts can be found at – select the LIBRARY tab at the top.

AJ Brooks: The Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable continues to develop a community of educators from around the world with a variety of thoughts, needs, and ideas.

AJ Brooks: Please join the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable group here in SL. If you are on Facebook, please join our group there – Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable.

AJ Brooks: The URL is

AJ Brooks: You can also find and post pictures to our Flickr group and follow us on Twitter @VWER. When you blog or tweet, please remember to include the tag #vwer

AJ Brooks: (its important not to forget to include the #)

AJ Brooks: Speaking of our hashtag, please follow our hashtag on Twitter for an ongoing conversation with our community.

AJ Brooks: #VWER

AJ Brooks: One thing you will notice today is that we have transcribers who will capture the essence of what our guest and I are saying and post it into the public chat.

AJ Brooks: This is for those who are not using voice chat as well as for our transcripts.

AJ Brooks: Occasionally we have a special meeting like this one, in voice chat. Normally, though, we all sit around a big round table and everyone can participate in the conversation.

AJ Brooks: Although you are welcome to use the local chat as a back channel, know that the guests and I will not necessarily be monitoring it.

AJ Brooks: If you’d like to make sure your questions gets considered, please use Google Moderator.

AJ Brooks: Google Moderator is a online forum where you can post questions, or VOTE on questions that are already posted. Our URL for that is

AJ Brooks: If you forget the URL, you can find it by clicking on the sign behind me to the left and right.

AJ Brooks: A programming note – our meeting next week will be a regular roundtable meeting and our topic will be “Future VWER Meeting Topics”

AJ Brooks: Anyway, enough of all that, let go ahead and get started. As many of all know, my name is AJ Kelton, AJ Brooks here in sL.

AJ Brooks: I’m the Director of Emerging & Instructional Technology for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University in NJ.

sinking the ship πŸ˜›

AJ: if you’re interested in moderating VWER, talk to Iggy or Kali.

AJ: normally we give some time between a new published work and an interview, but we really wanted to do the interview right away–my last interview that I’ll be able to participate in until December πŸ™

Birdie Newcomb: title?

Tom Bukowski: Here is the website where you can download chapter 1 as a free pdf, and there is also an inworld version we can give you:

Tom Bukowski:

Tom Bukowski: Ethnography and Virtual Worlds:A Handbook of Method

Kali Pizzaro: AS – I am Celia Pearce i am an associate Professor

Kali Pizzaro: and we study behavior in the VW

Tom Bukowski: Thanks AJ. I’m amazed by the work done by VWER. I’m a prof of Anthropology at UC Irvine, and a colleague of Celia’s for many years

Tom Bukowski: I’ve written two books about Indonesia, and have done research on gay and lesbian Indonesians

Tom Bukowski: We’ll chat a bit about my book on SL, and I’m also an editor of an academic journal in the field of Anthropology

AJ: while you have the mic, I wanted to ask you about Coming of Age in SL, your first on virtual worlds, and the first I read from the perspective of research as the focal point.

Tom Bukowski: awww

AJ: it is a real page turner!

VWER - August 30, 2012

Pathfinder Lester: i’m waiting for the movie

Pathfinder Lester: just kidding

Claudia13 Rossini: lol Path

AJ: give us a reader’s digest version of Coming of Age…

Claudia13 Rossini: we need cliff notes on both books

Dirk Grantly: the movie is called Tron lol

Tom Bukowski: the four of us all did earlier work in this field

Tom Bukowski: you can get the first chapter free from Princeton U Press, and there’s a free in-world version of CH. 1

Claudia13 Rossini: yes dear

Kali Pizzaro: looking to try to get an inspection copy – lol

Claudia13 Rossini: yup

it will be a well designed rezz box too

Claudia13 Rossini: you just want something to give a copy right?

Claudia13 Rossini: got it

AJ: Claudia, builder extraordinaire, will make Tom’s book available in a dispenser box.

Tom Bukowski: I was trained in traditional Anthropology, though my work has often not been considered traditional

Tom Bukowski: Ethnography means one becomes engaged in day to day life in a community being studied

AJ Brooks: Remember to post your questions, and vote for posted questions, but going to

Tom Bukowski: To present the standpoint of those being studied…and I treated SL the same way

Tom Bukowski: I used the same methods employed in Indonesia

Tom Bukowski: It surprised me at the ease of doing work here.

Kali Pizzaro: yep agree

Chatelaine Derryth: If only we had advisors who believed that as well… πŸ™

Tom Bukowski: I don’t use the term “Real Life” in my book, but events in SL are shaped by things on the other side of the screen

Tom Bukowski: I could look at how SLers are not only translating ideas from their lives, but also doing new things

Aphilo Aarde: The second volume may come directly into conversation with Tom’s and Celia’s book for today’s conversation, and involve the building of a virtual Harbin as ethnographic field site.

AJ: all three of books are available at Amazon and as a Kindle version.

AJ: 2009, Community of Play–I’d like to point out that the authors listed are self and avatar.

Kali Pizzaro: AS – Ok yeah the book is Communities of Play

Kali Pizzaro: based on my PhD

Percival Antiesse: that link seems to be bad, should it be

Kali Pizzaro: my background is a game designer since the 80

Kali Pizzaro: this is always being soical games

VWER - August 30, 2012

Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen):

Kali Pizzaro: so i was interested in the sociology of games

Kali Pizzaro: i slowly moved to the dark side in academia

Kali Pizzaro: what interested me was the emerging communities and i was looking at how these emerging behaviors come about

Kali Pizzaro: i am iterested in this but also the back end

Kali Pizzaro: who is behind the design and what is there

Tom Bukowski: transludic = between games

Kali Pizzaro: that drives them

Kali Pizzaro: i was looking at how behaviour differs between VW

Kali Pizzaro: so there is a intertwining of the game designer and the people who play

Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Kindle edition:

Kali Pizzaro: how do the influence etc each other

AJ: question from colleague: he used diaspora, referring to those who moved from Uru to SL. Did you use the term?

Kali Pizzaro: AS – do use that term

Kali Pizzaro: i want to just sya that Tom and i came together to

Tom Bukowski: And Celia got me up to speed on the digital game literature

Kali Pizzaro: disuss and influence each other and

Kali Pizzaro: so we peer supported each other

Kali Pizzaro: sI was interested in following the people

AJ Brooks: Remember to post your questions, and vote for posted questions, but going to

Kali Pizzaro: this was intriguing

Kali Pizzaro: play patterns and how they interact and the culture forms in their multiple VW use

Richmond Crowd here says “interesting” about distinct culture of Uru

AJ:, search library for past interview with Tom.

Artemesia Sandgrain: Hehe

Kali Pizzaro: woo

Zotarah Shepherd: hehe

VWER - August 30, 2012

Wrenaria Antiesse: πŸ™‚

Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): I know the feeling!

AJ: RL vs. virtual world–I don’t make a separation between physical and virtual, both very real.

Tredi Felisimo: physical world

AJ gets mad when I prod him by calling it all “Fake”

Kali Pizzaro: that is what i use

AJ: actual life instead of RL, from Tom’s book.

VWER - August 30, 2012

Zotarah Shepherd: 38 of us on the sim

Riven Homewood: Virtual worlds give you a sense of presence – of actually being together with people – I’ve never found it in any other online conference medium

Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): It’s all perception, Ig.

Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): agreed, @Riven.

true, my Millennial students are all over augmentation, but not VWs

Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Shocking

AJ: What’s here is not fictive, it’s actual.

Tom Bukowski: Just two quick points

Conover’s Flight-Helper 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.

Riven Homewood: Just after There closed, a friend met a female avatar walking along a beach in Caledon – she was talking about how different things were in SL and how much she missed her world

Tom Bukowski: About emergent game cultures…I talk about plot form and social form in my SL book

Aphilo Aarde: I just added Celia and Tom’s first chapter to wiki World University and School’s “Virtual World” Subject page … Tom Boellstorff, Bonnie Nardi, Celia Pearce & T. L. Taylor (With a foreword by George E. Marcus). 2012. [ Ethnography and Virtual Worlds: A Handbook of Method]. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

Aphilo Aarde:

Tom Bukowski: folks modify things to suit their needs in a game space…and that is what LL did when SLers began to use groups in ways not intended

Kali Pizzaro: nods

Tom Bukowski: about real and not real. We use “RL” a lot, but the virtual context does depend upon the actual world situation

Pathfinder Lester coughs…too bad LL never fixed the underlying group code to scale with the increased complexity of the tool

AJ Brooks: Remember to post your questions, and vote for posted questions, but going to

Chatelaine Derryth: <3 Path

Kali Pizzaro: nods

Tom Bukowski: We cannot assume a reality without computers in it…and so much is virtual

Tom Bukowski: language, dreams, are virtual

Tom Bukowski: So this meeting is real…our money is virtual too “IRL”

Percival Antiesse: AJ…get a not found for that link…should it be

Aphilo Aarde: Thank you for writing this!

Kali Pizzaro: AS- I would like to add, i have done a lot of research about this one thing i found is

Kali Pizzaro: that there is liitle that goes on in the VW that is not

Kali Pizzaro: been done or has a precedent

Kali Pizzaro: in the physical world

Kali Pizzaro: VW are not bew

Kali Pizzaro: new

Aphilo Aarde: So, AJ sees virtual and actual /real as fairly fully interwoven?

Kali Pizzaro: there is a lot of history in this area and

Kali Pizzaro: Tom’s adding of ethnography in this

Kali Pizzaro: is interesting

Kali Pizzaro: spending time in multiple VW

Kali Pizzaro: studying was able to study this concept in much more depth over a learge

Kali Pizzaro: geographical area

Aphilo Aarde: And does ethnography as method, show this interweaving in new ways?

AJ: why did you guys write this book?

Tom Bukowski: Why did we write it? One of the most fun things is that we wrote with one voice..three reasons

VWER - August 30, 2012

Tom Bukowski: First, all four of us had done book-length studies of virtual words

Tom Bukowski: We all got asked “how did you manage research in these worlds and games?”

Aphilo Aarde: HHow would each of you distinguish between the ‘virtual’ and ‘actual / real,’ in new ways, thanks to virtual worlds’ emergence?

Tom Bukowski: Our first reason was we got asked

Tom Bukowski: We have seen the rise of “Big Data” and some say that is the ONLY method for research–quantitative

Tom Bukowski: we think that our methods are also appropriate

Tom Bukowski: Third reason? The ease of getting data–you log on instead of getting on a plane to Indonesia

Kali Pizzaro: Disgusted

Tom Bukowski: But there is a danger…folks calling themselves researchers and publishing screen names of subjects

Zotarah Shepherd: Another form of Griefing

Tom Bukowski: And this can harm folks who run businesses

Riven Homewood: I was terrified of researchers in SL, until I met you, Tom. I’ve run into people like that.

Tom Bukowski: this can give ethical researchers a bad name

Percival Antiesse: these are issues for anthropologists in any context, I think

Kali Pizzaro: all researchers

Artemesia Sandgrain: πŸ™‚

Tredi Felisimo: Happens in all fields! (so many “psychologists” in SL who aren’t)

Esparanza Freese: the research that my colleague and I did in SL we got approval from the Institutional Research at our university

Tom Bukowski: Two chapters of the handbook are about ethical research

AJ: two things, George Marcus mentions in the intro that the popularity of ethnography potentially undermining validity. Do you think that’s why?

Tom Bukowski: The popularity of people claiming to be ethnographers can undermine our work

Percival Antiesse: that sounds a bt elitist

VWER - August 30, 2012

Kali Pizzaro: AS – yeah my discipline is game studies

Tom Bukowski: because it can be so easy to just log need not, say, learn another languae

AJ Brooks: Remember to post your questions, and vote for posted questions, but going to

Kali Pizzaro: and for me couple of things

Percival Antiesse: I get a 404 for that link AJ

Kali Pizzaro: at one of the conf i was at

Kali Pizzaro: folk were like i want to know how to do this

Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen):

Kali Pizzaro: however another conf folk presented as ethnography which was not

Tredi Felisimo: YIKES!!!

Percival Antiesse: sounds like how anthropology was done in the early 20C

Kali Pizzaro: one person had sexual and romantic relationships

Kali Pizzaro: and did not tell folk

Claudia13 Rossini: For those of you inworld the blue edged prims should give you portions of the books

Kali Pizzaro: AS- and of course folk jump on these cases

Tom Bukowski: IRB = Institutional Review Board

Kali Pizzaro: when they want to diss the methodology

AJ: IRB approval necessary.

Zotarah Shepherd: IRB committees should know about all this.

AJ: one problem, don’t know who’s behind the avatar. How does the legitimacy of the question challenge the ethics of ethnographic research?

that’s the fear of most Millennials I teach…it’s “creepy” not to know who is playing an avie

Kali Pizzaro: AS – some folk talk about having to have face to face

Kali Pizzaro: interviews

Kali Pizzaro: but we have proven with others

Kali Pizzaro: that the online identity

Kali Pizzaro: is a legitimate

Chatelaine Derryth: There’s a diff between knowing who the researcher is IRL and who the subjects are iRL IMO

Kali Pizzaro: area to study

Kali Pizzaro: AS- so there is some debate still about this

Kali Pizzaro: agree

Kim Chihuly: a shadow..let me see

Kali Pizzaro: KP – agree

Tom Bukowski: Two points to add. First, we’ve shown you need not know someone’s identify in the physical world

Kali Pizzaro: lol

Aphilo Aarde: I’m so glad anthropological research and analysis is emerging with a focus on virtual worlds, thanks, particularly to your books, Tom and Celia! It’s a methodology that adds so much to other academic approaches.

Tom Bukowski: in Indonesia, because gay men are ostracized, I often get pseudonyms from those I interview

Tom Bukowski: This does not invalidate the research…and we cannot assume the same online.

Artemesia Sandgrain nods

Tom Bukowski: There are cases where you may want to meet someone in the physical world

Tom Bukowski: if, say, you were studying a group meeting in the physical world…you’d want to go there too

Kali Pizzaro: yep

Tom Bukowski: You will see my RL identity in my profile, and I don’t use ALTs

Tom Bukowski: This provides ethical clearance for my work

Aphilo Aarde: Would you say pseudonyms are a form of virtuality in actual Indonesia? I see, and write about, this in terms of ‘spiritual names’ (which are part of Harbin’s alternative milieu/counterculture) at Harbin, in some ways.

Kali Pizzaro: AS- I agree the physical world identity is known

Kali Pizzaro: my reserch ethics committee wanted paper signed copies

Kali Pizzaro: and I could not do that

Kali Pizzaro: so this was new for the committee to get their head around

AJ: “We worked on memorialisation in virtual worlds, but, although we had interesting data, we struggled with the ‘so what?’, i.e. with a meaningful theoretical point. What can you suggest about the lessons of virtual worlds for anthropological theory?”

Tom Bukowski: Go ahead Celia

Kali Pizzaro: AS _ this goes back to earlier when we talk about VW and PW

Chatelaine Derryth: Yay Goffman!!

Kali Pizzaro: as there is usually a theory that can be linked from the Physical world

Aphilo Aarde: In the upcoming virtual Harbin, avatar names, in addition to spiritual names, for example, will add interesting new layers of meaning.

Kali Pizzaro: AS – Gothman talks about performance and this is very similar to

Chatelaine Derryth: He also has a lot about private and public spaces, reclaiming “face” after you lose it, and bunches more great stuff.

Kali Pizzaro: VW behaviour

Kali Pizzaro: lol

Tom Bukowski: With any research, we all research narrowly and think broadly

Tom Bukowski: we find ways to get focused research to address bigger issues

Tom Bukowski: I’d suggest that there is no difference between online and offline research in that way

Tom Bukowski: One must have good research design and take care when generalizing

Tom Bukowski: So there is no difference

Tom Bukowski: correction “or far fewer than many people think”

Claudia13 Rossini: lol

Kali Pizzaro: lol

AJ: distinction between ethnographers conducting research in VWs not virtual ethnographers. Explain distinction.

Tom Bukowski: In the book, we were talking about what we call ourselves

Tom Bukowski: the point of Ethnography is that you shape methods to the situation

Aphilo Aarde: including Tom and Celia’s books and videos, from time to time … Thank you Tom and Celia!

Tom Bukowski: We don’t, thus, think that “virtual ethnography” is’s just ethnography

Tom Bukowski: We customize it to the subject we study

Tom Bukowski: yep, that too, Thank you Celia

Kali Pizzaro: AS – I want to add that the term viryual can make people think this is not as important

Tom Bukowski: oh no, good question lol

Tom Bukowski: And I can stay a little late if needed

AJ: two last fun questions. Favorite part of putting book together?

Kali Pizzaro: AS – mmmm

Artemesia Sandgrain laughs

Tom Bukowski: My favorite part? We thought at first we’d do an edited volume of many chapters then we decided we wanted to write it with one voice

Chatelaine Derryth: wow that is so cool

VWER - August 30, 2012

Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): I think that is so cool!

Tredi Felisimo: WOW!

Zotarah Shepherd: Amazing work!

Pathfinder Lester: very cool

Tom Bukowski: so we wrote it as one huge Google Doc, contesting every sentence in a 300 page manuscript

Kali Pizzaro: yep

Tom Bukowski: this gives the work power, since we can talk about our own projects, but we agreed o the process and outcome

Kali Pizzaro: AS – I agree it was great but I also learned so much from the others

Tom Bukowski: I learned so much too

AJ: on a personal note, work up to MA was on writing studies, so understanding the difficulty of writing in one voice is truly an amazing accomplishment.

Tom Bukowski: awww, Thank you

Kali Pizzaro: AS – oh for me the same as the favorite thing

VWER - August 30, 2012

AJ: greatest challenge in putting the book togethet?

Aphilo Aarde: Thank you, Tom, Celia and AJ!

Kali Pizzaro: Google docs is good but not perfect so can be challenging

Claudia13 Rossini: lol

Kali Pizzaro: AS – we did a lot on SKYPE and time zones

Kali Pizzaro: yep know that feeling – VWER

Kali Pizzaro: Kali

Tom Bukowski: I’d add that we will build on this with our next project…we all remained friends

Tom Bukowski: the challenge? We all were working full time jobs and could not go on sabbatical

Claudia13 Rossini: i need that kind of grant

Tom Bukowski: We had to steal time work collaborate. Time management was tough

Chatelaine Derryth: yay Celia!

Zotarah Shepherd: Congratulations Celia!

VWER - August 30, 2012

Tom Bukowski: in the end it all worked really well

Kali Pizzaro: AS – we think it is worth it

Tredi Felisimo: Good luck! And thanks!!

Fran Seranade: thank you and congratulations Tom and Celia

Tom Bukowski: We truly hope you find it helpful – and that’s right, we tried to make it of general use

Birdie Newcomb: very informative

Kali Pizzaro: all priceless for me

AJ: as someone who is just learning the challenges of doing research with mixed methodologies, your work deals with concepts that are very valuable for new researchers! Thanks!

Kali Pizzaro: yep great work

Tom Bukowski: I think Celia had a plug to make

Claudia13 Rossini: excellent!!!!

Tom Bukowski: I’d love too!

Attica Bekkers: πŸ™‚

thank you!

Esparanza Freese: fantastic meeting, thank you so much!

Artemesia Sandgrain:

Kali Pizzaro: AS – Thanks for that i am doing a large survey across all vVW

I’ll make that link live on the transcript

Chatelaine Derryth: Thanks Tom and Celia — your books and articles are so great

Kali Pizzaro: so please complete the survey

Chatelaine Derryth: and thanks AJ for setting this up

Barbie Alchemi: Thank you!

Kali Pizzaro: phew

Tom Bukowski: Yes, thanks AJ

Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): First week craziness.

Chatelaine Derryth: and good luck with the diss, AJ.

Tom Bukowski: Great job moderating, as always

Frankie Antonelli: Thanks for the wonderful session.

Galileo Zeplin: fascinating … many thanks!

Rudolfo Woodget: Thanks so much!

Artemesia Sandgrain: Thanks AJ!

Frankie Antonelli: Good luck AJ!

Zotarah Shepherd: Thank you Tom and Celia. Thanks AJ.

Attica Bekkers: yay

Artemesia Sandgrain: And thanks everyone for coming

Claudia13 Rossini: (he loves me most)

Attica Bekkers: take care

Percival Antiesse: thank you

Kali Pizzaro: thanks AJ ttyl

Fran Seranade: bye and thank you

Shailey Garfield: Thanks

Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): Fascinating discussion!!!

Shailey Garfield: All the best, AJ

Sarah Northman-Voorhees (sjackb.northman): Thank you all!

Kim Chihuly: Thanks !

Artemesia Sandgrain: Bye everyone

VWER - August 30, 2012

Wrenaria Antiesse: thanks!

Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Thanks! Great interview.

Tom Bukowski: Thanks everyone – and thanks to all the friends I see out htere inthe autidence

Dirk Grantly: well done

Artemesia Sandgrain: Thanks so much for coming!

Kali Pizzaro: thanks Dan

AJ Brooks: Evelyn – check IM

Tom Bukowski: Great job AJ

Prof. Dan (profdan.netizen): YW, Kali.

Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): Many thanks to the transcribers.

Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks Kali and Iggy for transcribing

Kali Pizzaro: cheers

Kali Pizzaro: Sorry for confusing Tom lol

Kali Pizzaro: in the IM

Tom Bukowski: lol np

Kali Pizzaro: looking fetching as usual Claudia

Kali Pizzaro: AJ mmmmm

Claudia13 Rossini: he’ll be doing his next study about Scottish women in VW’s Kali

Kali Pizzaro: same ole tshort

Kali Pizzaro: lol

Kali Pizzaro: runs

Claudia13 Rossini: lol, thanks dear

Kali Pizzaro: that might be a step too far even for Tom

Tom Bukowski: Claudia, thanks for your tech wizardry

Tom Bukowski: mmmm!

Tom Bukowski: Gotta check out Kali now

Kali Pizzaro: the scottish a whole other world and language as you know

Claudia13 Rossini: more then welcome Tom….i’ve found both of your talks excellent and fascinating

Tom Bukowski: Thank you Claudia

Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): And you should know that Claudia doesn’t give empty praise!

Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid): She’s tough to impress

Grizzla (grizzla.pixelmaid) grins

Claudia13 Rossini: omg…just keep her in text chat….i can’t understand her in voice…hugs poor Kali

Kali Pizzaro: lol

Kali Pizzaro: i dinnae know whit yer talkin aboot

Claudia13 Rossini: but when i ad Grizzy you know it’s high phrase

Tom Bukowski: lol

Kali Pizzaro: i love confusing Claudia

Claudia13 Rossini: as you can see Tom, Kali, Griz and i have talked before

Kali Pizzaro: with her Scottish word of the day

Tom Bukowski: K folks, I gotta run – thank you SO MUCH for coming and inviting me – this was really fun, and I would be happy to come back anytime

Kali Pizzaro: my feet are killing me

Tom Bukowski: lol

Claudia13 Rossini: she keeps sending me lists of Scottish words to learn….i’m only up to hagus

Tom Bukowski: k, take care!

Kali Pizzaro: cheers Speak soon

Tom Bukowski waves warmly and poofs away

Kali Pizzaro: take care

Chatelaine Derryth: Thanks Tom for the best ethnography every (on LL)

VWER - August 30, 2012

Kali Pizzaro: cough Haggis

Claudia13 Rossini: thanks again Tom


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