VWER Meeting Transcripts by Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License.
Based on a work at www.vwer.org.
Transcript of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable September 13, 2012
Topic: New Academic Year: Plans, Projects & Questions
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Hi everyone and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Before we begin today’s discussion, here’s some basic info about VWER meetings:
Grizzla Pixelmaid: This is a forum to educate and inform about virtual worlds issues that are important and relevant to education.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Each week we get a wide variety of educators, from seasoned veterans to the newly-rezzed.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: We meet every Thursday on the virtual campus of Bowling Green State University, from 11:30-12:30 pm SLT.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: (SLT = “Second Life Time,” which is the same as U.S. Pacific time).
Grizzla Pixelmaid: We’ve met every week since March 2008.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Please note: Roundtable discussions are held in TEXT chat, not voice chat.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: If you are new to VWER meetings, be aware that the text chat can run pretty quickly. Don’t worry if it takes you awhile to get used to two or three conversations going on simultaneously.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: If you make a comment or ask a question that isn’t acknowledged, don’t take it personally. Good contributions may be inadvertently overlooked when chat is moving fast.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: If that happens to you, don’t be shy to say the same thing again – or IM me and I’ll find a break so I can make sure your important question/comment is addressed.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: This is a public meeting, so we keep and publish a transcript of what is said in local chat.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: We have some groups you are welcome to join!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Check out the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable group in Second Life and our group on Facebook.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Follow us on Twitter @VWER:
Grizzla Pixelmaid: When you blog or tweet, please remember to include the hashtag #VWER.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: OK, that’s it for the general announcements!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: A new academic year has begun, so it seems like a good time to put our heads together and talk about how things are going, what our plans are, what questions or challenges we have.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I expect it’ll be a fun discussion!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: After introductions, I’d like to give priority to any newcomers, to ask their questions.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: We always begin by introducing ourselves, and if this is your first time here, please say so, so we can take good care of you.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Everyone can type at once!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I’m Chris Robinson, “Virtual Assistant” in the Office of Educational Technology for Georgia Gwinnett College in metro Atlanta.
Claudia13 Rossini: Claudia – cranky builder
Birdie Newcomb: Birdie Newborn, creator of educational materials, texts, and Playbooks
Beth Ghostraven: Beth O’Connell, middle school librarian in Virginia, explorer of SL
Sheila Yoshikawa: I teach and research in the Information School at Sheffield University, UK and own our island, Infolit iSchool
Wrenaria Antiesse: Kimmy Hescock, social and immersive media manager at Oregon State University.
LoCE99Ch8 Morpork: Rosanna Brown, California Community College Librarian, emeritus
Galileo Zeplin: Ed Johnson, Board of Regents, University System of Georgia
Robit Gundersen: Creating Virtual training scenarios for interpreters in sl .. Bangor University
Zotarah Shepherd: I am working on an MA in Education Technology at Sonoma State University in northern California. I finished all my classes. My Thesis project: Teaching and Learning Life Awareness & Success Skills in Virtual Worlds. Visiting Seattle in a few weeks.
Ellie Brewster: Sharon Collingwood, Ohio State Women’s Studies
Deed Davids: David Deeds, Technology Integration Coordinator for Colegios Peterson in Mexico City.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Is that all of us?
Grizzla Pixelmaid: OK then! First – has everybody’s academic year begun, or are there some of us whose classes haven’t begun yet?
Ellie Brewster: Slogging away, 3 weeks into it
Claudia13 Rossini: (does not go to school or teach classes)
Deed Davids: School started one month ago.
Wrenaria Antiesse: we don’t start until the 24th
Sheila Yoshikawa: we have intro week next week, teaching starts the week after. same for most UK unis I think
Beth Ghostraven: This is the 2nd week back for our students, 5th week back for me
Birdie Newcomb: offering class in October
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I’ve lost track of when we started classes – seems like forever already
Sheila Yoshikawa: lol
LoCE99Ch8 Morpork: Our resident grandson is back to school: 8th grade.
Ellie Brewster: Orientation is always a nightmare
Grizzla Pixelmaid: So among our group – who is not in some way involved in virtual worlds for education (other than these meetings) – who is starting something new – who is continuing with past projects?
Zotarah Shepherd: I noticed that the UW is still on Summer Interim and I know they have a something in Virtual Worlds Certificate program.
LoCE99Ch8 Morpork: interested bystander
Claudia13 Rossini: me but i’m doing builds
Robit Gundersen: 2 yrs into a project .. 2 yrs to go…
Beth Ghostraven: Seeing this rather far in the future for our students
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Ran, is the UW certificate program the one you do?
Ran Hienrichs: Yes, it is. It starts on September 27th: http://www.pce.uw.edu/certificates/virtual-worlds.html
Sheila Yoshikawa: I won’t be teaching first year students in SL this year, because the module doesn’t run any more; we’re phasing out one undergrad programme and starting another this year
Birdie Newcomb: I’ve launched a project not in SL, but might be useful here — of Shakespeare Director Playbooks, all the stuff that set designer, costumer, stage management, budget, that goes into a real production..
Zotarah Shepherd: Still chipping away at my thesis mostly
Ellie Brewster: We’re winding down Minerva, I think, unless some money shows up miraculously
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Oh that’s sad. I love Minerva.
Beth Ghostraven: What is Minerva?
Ellie Brewster: Yes, me too. But $3500 yr is just too much
Ellie Brewster: Ohio State’s island for Women’s Studies
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes sad about Minerva, but you are finding a small plot somewhere?
Ellie Brewster: I think we’ll be teaching out of Chilbo
Ellie Brewster: It seems appropriate
Zotarah Shepherd: I am in the UW library at this moment. Lovely campus. I want to take the certificate after I finish my MA.
Birdie Newcomb: Also producing ebook versions of my offerings for early college years
Sheila Yoshikawa: The Turkish educators haven’t moved into their corner of Infolit iSchool but they should do soon, they were intending to do some teaching in SL
Ran Hienrichs: In the Certificate Class we will be sending off Maya Island on December 21, 2012 – then Building the iSchool inworld.
Beth Ghostraven: I keep hearing about how educational groups are leaving SL because of the cost
Birdie Newcomb: I spend more time in 3rd Rock Grid. Much smaller but a community. In SL, I’m camping out, not paying rent
Ellie Brewster: Makes sense, Birdie
Ellie Brewster: Yes, people are downsizing because of the cost.
Zotarah Shepherd: The other grids do not cost as much but most are still looking like 2007
Ran Hienrichs: I’m sad to hear that Beth. It is the cost that is driving many people to the virtual world.
Ellie Brewster: I am planning to have a small space here, and another in another VW – not sure which.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Beth, I don’t think it’s ONLY cost. Linden Lab has changed many things in how it deals with education & non-profits, and they have offended the – heck – out of pretty much everybody.
Beth Ghostraven: @Ran, true; it’s all relative
Ellie Brewster: I’ll still be teaching in here, just as much as ever, and I want to know how cheaply I can do that.
Zotarah Shepherd: If I redo my educational sim it will probably be on Reaction Grid or Jokaydia.
Sheila Yoshikawa: well, you are always welcome to use the venues on Infolit iSchool, Ellie
Zotarah Shepherd: Yes that too Grizzla
Beth Ghostraven: The cost of RL conferences is partly borne by the participants, while the cost of virtual worlds is borne by the organizations
Ellie Brewster: Thank you, Sheila!
Sheila Yoshikawa: we will be continuing to do professional development/ research events
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I think there are still a lot of opportunities for sharing space in SL, for institutions that can’t afford their own sims.
Ran Hienrichs: @Beth – that is exactly right, it’s about “how” you put on your virtual conference. And even moreso, who shows up.
Beth Ghostraven: @Grizz, I didn’t realize that–it’s unfortunate
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Our college has decided to keep a thicker skin about Linden Lab for the time being, until we feel like there’s something clearly better to switch to.
Zotarah Shepherd: I still have a bit of mainland mostly for meetings.
Sheila Yoshikawa: nice to know, Grizzla
Ellie Brewster: Yes, Grizzla, I think there are a lot of us who feel this way. I’m ready to jump, but not sure where.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Yes, LL used to even have staff members for the educational community – one of whom has just joined us!
Pathfinder Lester: lol sorry i’m late
Grizzla Pixelmaid: No apology needed; people come when they can & leave when they need to.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Path, since we’re talking about you, would you want to tell briefly what you used to do for LL?
Grizzla Pixelmaid: (not to put you on the spot or anything!)
Pathfinder Lester: sure no worries
Claudia13 Rossini: (oh put him on the spot, after all he was late)
Pathfinder Lester: I had a few different hats at LL (I also set up and ran the Boston Lab)
Grizzla Pixelmaid whispers “Well, that was my clever plot, but I didn’t want to make it obvious”
Pathfinder Lester: but primarily I was the primary liaison between educators and LL
Claudia13 Rossini: laughs
Birdie Newcomb: You and Claudia Oncealinden
Pathfinder Lester: i did my best to help cultivate edu-focused projects in SL. And also to help LL develop features that would make it easier for educators to run projects in here.
Pathfinder Lester: if you want more details, it’s all on my LinkedIn profile
Beth Ghostraven: Is LL no longer interested in having educators use SL?
Pathfinder Lester: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/johnelester
Ellie Brewster: Path, did I hear that Reaction Grid is reducing their presence in OpenSim?
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I think SL is a vehicle that can be used in many ways… it isn’t that they “don’t want” us, just that they aren’t going out of their way to help us.
Pathfinder Lester: Beth, I do not attempt to guess at what LL is saying they are interested in doing.
Beth Ghostraven: @Grizz, that’s kind of what I meant
Pathfinder Lester: Ellie, ReactionGrid is focusing primarily on our Jibe platform now, yes.
Ellie Brewster: I’ve been trying to learn more about Jibe, still finding it a challenge
Galileo Zeplin: why did LL cut the educational discount? Was it just profit considerations?
Pathfinder Lester: Ellie, I know. Our current website is not so hot. Good news is that i’ve been leading a project to build a completely new website that should explain things much better. It will be live starting this weekend.
Birdie Newcomb: Do you think hypergridding is passe, before it’s even fashionable?
Sheila Yoshikawa: lol
Ellie Brewster: Super news, Path. I’ll be there
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I think I succeeded twice at hypergridding.
Zotarah Shepherd: hypergridding is fun
Beth Ghostraven: @Zo, i agree
Claudia13 Rossini: i think hypergridding will take development of other competitive VCW’s before it really takes off… say 5 years
Zotarah Shepherd: I wish I had time to do it more.
Birdie Newcomb: It feels like the old days in SL, still experimental
Pathfinder Lester: Opensim is definitely still experimental
Graham Mills: What isn’t?
Grizzla Pixelmaid: and “free like a puppy”
Pathfinder Lester: just ask the developers of Opensim. they’ll tell you “this is alpha version software”
Graham Mills: alpha means feature-incomplete
Pathfinder Lester: That’s one thing I really like about Jibe. We’ve based it on industry standards that are stable and definitely *not* experimental. Like Unity3d (a core part of Jibe)
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Well, I’d like to pull us back to the topic of the day. Next week is Open Forum, and let’s save some of these interests for next week.
Beth Ghostraven: ok
Pathfinder Lester: but I also like Opensim. different tool for different purpose.
Birdie Newcomb: What was our topic?
Grizzla Pixelmaid: LOL
Pathfinder Lester: oh, sorry if I derailed things. :p
Grizzla Pixelmaid: No problem! If you’ll recall, I asked you!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Anyway – since this is the start of the academic year, my thought was for folks to share what we’d like to do in VWs this year, whether it’s a new project or something ongoing.
Sheila Yoshikawa: so I’m not teaching students but one of the talks we will be having is from someone at Edinburgh University about the “Manifesto for Teaching Online”
Sheila Yoshikawa: and we’re thinking about having a little associated exhibition
Sheila Yoshikawa: http://onlineteachingmanifesto.wordpress.com/
Graham Mills: is that the one they published last year?
Beth Ghostraven: I’m planning to use it for ongoing professional development, connecting with library professionals and educators
Graham Mills: it’s a great manifesto
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Beth, Galileo might be a good person to network with – ?
Beth Ghostraven: OK thnx
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes so i will be publicising the talk/discussion but may also ask for ideas of what to put in a little accompanying exhibit, apart from the manifesto itself that is
Ellie Brewster: I think this is going to be a very interesting year in SL.. With the grandfathered educational discount going, there will be pressure to find new ways of using SL. I’m feeling very optimistic about it -
Ellie Brewster: Oops, sorry, didn’t mean to post that so early
Sheila Yoshikawa: no, it’s nice to hear optimism
Graham Mills: a lot of the manifesto relates well to what we do here — shouldn’t be too hard
Sheila Yoshikawa: actually I feel still quite enthusiastic and optimistic!
Sheila Yoshikawa: shall i spam you with the manifesto text? It isn’t THAT long
Graham Mills: I see some of the Edinburgh folk are using SL and OpenSim in the Coursera course they are running
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Great – say more about your optimism (Ellie & Sheila)
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes, the people presenting are active teachers in SL
Distance is a positive principle, not a deficit. Online can be the privileged mode.
The possibility of the ‘online version’ is overstated. The best online courses are born digital.
By redefining connection we find we can make eye contact online.
‘Best practice’ is a totalising term blind to context; there are many ways to get it right.
Every course design is philosophy and belief in action.
The aesthetics of online course design are too readily neglected: courses that are fair of (inter)face are better places to teach and learn in.
Online courses are prone to cultures of surveillance: our visibility to each other is a pedagogical and ethical issue.
Text is being toppled as the only mode that matters in academic writing.
Visual and hypertextual representations allow arguments to emerge, rather than be stated.
New forms of writing make assessors work harder: they remind us that assessment is an act of interpretation.
Feedback can be digested, worked with, created from.
Ellie Brewster: Each of those sentences is a chapter.
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes good starting points for debate
Birdie Newcomb: I likey
Ellie Brewster: I like the aggressively positive approach of this manifesto.
RichMedia: It’s great!
Beth Ghostraven: Those of you who teach college students in SL, do you find that there’s a big learning curve for using SL for them?
Ellie Brewster: Yes, Beth, there is. We have to fashion all kinds of orientations for them
Beth Ghostraven: OK; I thought that since they’re digital natives it might be easier for them
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Yes – and orientations need to be very specific for what the students need to do in SL, without extra stuff.
Claudia13 Rossini: sometimes Beth, it depends really more on how much they need to learn to use SL….basic skills like walking vs creating notecards
Beth Ghostraven: (I still haven’t learned to create a notecard, lol)
Grizzla Pixelmaid: (Yeah, Claudia has been advising me in building our new orientation area)
Sheila Yoshikawa: my experience was always that the “digital natives” were only “native” in a narrow range of applications and channels
Claudia13 Rossini: i think you’re quite right Sheila
Beth Ghostraven: @Sheila, true for all of us
RichMedia: That’s what EDUCAUSE finds as well in their annual survey of undergrads.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Agreed, Sheila. When I went on the World of Warcraft tour during VWBPE, the students who took me around WoW, said they had tried SL and found it too confusing! In contrast, I’m very comfortable in SL but was tearing my hair out over the (to me) confusing WoW interface.
Ellie Brewster: And sad to say, there’s also a gender element to “noobism”
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Gender element?
Ellie Brewster: Girls don’t do as well. Women are afraid of the tech
Claudia13 Rossini: i think they prefer to learn what interests them, not what challenges them
Sheila Yoshikawa: hmmm – just reflecting on that – not sure I’ve found it true ….
Ellie Brewster: Once they learn it, there’s no problem.
Beth Ghostraven: That stinks, when SL is so good for communicating!
Graham Mills: but there’s a strong social element
Claudia13 Rossini: except that 70% of SL is female
Graham Mills: yes
Grizzla Pixelmaid: In our pilot group, it seemed like the girls became more engaged in SL – maybe because they were initially more interested in modifying their avs, and then felt more “represented” by their avs
Ellie Brewster: Still, my students take some convincing.
Beth Ghostraven: It’s kind of like playing with dolls, except the other dolls are really talking to you
Sheila Yoshikawa: with my Masters students definitely wasn’t, but it might have been true with the younger students
Ellie Brewster: The avatar is a great help with introducing women to SL
RichMedia: Anyone know off-hand what the gender ratio of the entire VWER?
Birdie Newcomb: I’d think that the extraordinary time in creating an avatar would attract females more than males
Ellie Brewster: Yes, they like that part, but you have to get them inworld first
Claudia13 Rossini: i find if you mention ‘shoes’ to women it overcomes any reluctance
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Good question, Rich. I have no idea but we can check.
Birdie Newcomb: lol
Ellie Brewster: @ Claudia
Grizzla Pixelmaid: (Well, except to my great disappointment, no designers in SL have made Vibram Fivefingers yet)
Birdie Newcomb: or designer clothes
LoCE99Ch8 Morpork: Are there any stereotypes associated with new male residents of SL?
Claudia13 Rossini: i think right now the 70% still holds in vwer….look around you
Claudia13 Rossini: the clothes are terrible in SL (except for costumes)
Grizzla Pixelmaid looks offended
Beth Ghostraven: Someone had suggested using pre-made avatars- maybe Iggy last week here
Claudia13 Rossini: laughs
Sheila Yoshikawa: well I think they are rather spiffing
Ellie Brewster: I have been coveting Sheila’s kimono – not everyone goes around in jeans.
Sheila Yoshikawa: TY Ellie
Birdie Newcomb: ruths? oh no
Ellie Brewster: The avatar is an amazing tool for me. That’s what holds me back from Cloud Party. Those avs don’t compare
Sheila Yoshikawa: Grizzla, did you decide for or against the premade avatars in the end?
LoCE99Ch8 Morpork: Some of us dress down (lowering ARC) in heavily used sims.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: For me, there are many many many things about Cloud Party that don’t make it an alternative.
Sheila Yoshikawa just piles on the prims, ahem
Claudia13 Rossini: immersion means you need to identify with your av. If there’s no immersion you aren’t getting the full benefit of learning (per phd studies i’ve read)
Graham Mills: Xulu looks amazing albeit more gaming-oriented
Ellie Brewster: Grizzla, a list?
Galileo Zeplin: isnt the main appeal of cloud party that it works in ordinary browser, not requiring special downloaded software?
Sheila Yoshikawa: apart from anything else cloud party seems a bit too laggy, plus there isn’t really that much to DO yet
Birdie Newcomb: but not on all macs
Ellie Brewster: Yes, and with my tech-resistant women, the CP browser thing is attractive
Stylianos Ling: Claudia you’re right. It could act as a temporary meeting space
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Others jump in, if you’ve spent time in Cloud Party. Besides the avatar limitations, it just isn’t realistic. You can put down furniture but there is no “interaction with objects” – you can’t sit in the chair you rez, for example.
Ellie Brewster: I’m assuming a lot of that will change. It’s Alpha
Sheila Yoshikawa: I do still have contact time with the new first years including on digital literacy and I was toying with using cloud party, but have failed to think of a reason why it would be useful
Graham Mills: It’s still alpha, Grizz
Claudia13 Rossini: oh…..Cloud Party is comic book like…in other words, not really a 3D world
Ellie Brewster: They have a very creative permissions system that promises a good economy
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Very true, Graham. All I mean is that it isn’t a viable alternative yet – for our purposes, anyway.
Graham Mills: yup
Ellie Brewster: I am keeping an eye on it. Too many things to think about, really
Galileo Zeplin: and theres the requirement to reveal real id in cloud party
Ellie Brewster: That’s a big downside.
Beth Ghostraven: I’ve heard that young adults like that better – the real id
Claudia13 Rossini: i think we’re going to see a lot of startups and drop outs over the next several years….we are still pioneers
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Right. I actually created a new FB account, just to use Cloud Party. (I know that’s technically not allowed, and since I’m putting this in public transcript, the FB police will probably shut down Grizzla’s FB account)
Claudia13 Rossini: (we won’t rat you out…for a small fee)
Graham Mills: just edit it out — none of us would rat on you if the price is right – lol, jinx
Ellie Brewster: I think there are a lot of people doing that, Grizzla. Some of the people I meet are very SLish
Grizzla Pixelmaid: LOL
Claudia13 Rossini: nods to Graham
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Right. As soon as I created that account, I started discovering how many SL avs have FB accounts.
Claudia13 Rossini: but i think it’s a very valid point….generally we don’t want our r/l names out there
Beth Ghostraven: I know quite a few people who have at least 2 FB accounts
Grizzla Pixelmaid: We’ve got about 10 min. left… since some folks need to cut out early, I’ll do my advertising for upcoming meetings now…
Claudia13 Rossini: though a fair number of VWER regulars know my last name et al
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Next week’s meeting, Sept. 20, will be an Open Forum, where there will be (almost!) no holds barred re topics and questions.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: The following week, Sept. 27, the topic will be “Students’ Experiences in VWs: avoiding the bad, maximizing the good.”
Zotarah Shepherd: That sounds interesting Grizz
Pathfinder Lester: yes, definitely!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Anybody else have a question, or project they want to discuss, in the remaining time?
Birdie Newcomb: Let me throw out a project I’m working on (to see if anyone might be able to help withthe technie stuff — which is, working with bots for theater, so as to have “real” players and bots interacting
Claudia13 Rossini: Griz….i’ve a topic suggestion…’realistic expectiations in VW education for 2012′
Galileo Zeplin: fascinating challenge, birdie
Grizzla Pixelmaid writes Claudia’s topic suggestion on her hand with a virtual Sharpie, so as not to forget
Ellie Brewster: And.. how about something on keeping community together accross virtual worlds boundaries?
Birdie Newcomb: SL seems like the place for it — or similar grid
Graham Mills: @Birdie Is that making use of new new npc featurees, pathfinding etc?
Graham Mills: bye Path
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Birdie, were you here during the summer when Kali led an RT discussion on bots?
Birdie Newcomb: Missed that one.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Let’s do talk about that – maybe next week – but you can also check the transcript from that meeting in the meantime
Graham Mills: I have npcs (non-player characters) in my list of things to do on Kitely (OpenSim)
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Kali’s group uses bots quite a bit, but she won’t be back here for another 3 or 4 weeks.
Birdie Newcomb: Oh, the training a dog to follow? Yes, but much more complex would be needed.
Robit Gundersen: Anyone working with bots I’d like to hear from .. I have a bot heavy user project
Birdie Newcomb: What sort, Robert?
Robit Gundersen: I use Thoy bots
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I’m looking for the link to that transcript…
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Here it is: http://www.vwer.org/2012/06/14/june-14-2012-what-the-bot-is-that-all-about/
Birdie Newcomb: thanks Grizzla, I’ll take a look
Graham Mills: I used Pikkubots for a bit — sounds similar
Robit Gundersen: Yes I’ve got some Pikku as well
Graham Mills: how do they compare?
Robit Gundersen: I’m happy with the support from Thoy
Graham Mills: http://pikkubot.de/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=wiki
Robit Gundersen: http://slbot.thoys.nl/
Birdie Newcomb: Good, something to work with.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Well, our time is up for today – “official” meeting is over, but as always, feel free to hang out and chat as long as you like.
Sheila Yoshikawa: TY Grizzla
Grizzla Pixelmaid: The transcript ends here too, so if you say anything outrageous, don’t worry, it won’t end up on the website.