September 7, 2012:
VWER Meeting Transcripts by Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License.
Based on a work at www.vwer.org.
Transcript of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable, September 20, 2012
Topic: Open Forum
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Hi everyone and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Before we begin today’s discussion, here is some basic info about VWER meetings:
Grizzla Pixelmaid: This is a forum to educate and inform about virtual worlds issues that are important and relevant to education.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Each week we get a wide variety of educators, from seasoned veterans to the newly-rezzed.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: We meet every Thursday, here on the virtual campus of Bowling Green State University, from 11:30-12:30 pm SLT.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: (SLT = “Second Life Time,” which is the same as U.S. Pacific time).
Grizzla Pixelmaid: We’ve met every week since March 2008.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Roundtable discussions are held in TEXT chat, not voice chat.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: If you’re new to VWER meetings, be aware that the text chat can run pretty quickly. Don’t worry if it takes you awhile to get used to two or three conversations going on simultaneously.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: If you make a comment or ask a question that isn’t acknowledged, don’t take it personally; good contributions might go unnoticed when chat is moving fast.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: If that happens to you, don’t be shy to say the same thing again – or IM me and I’ll find a break so I can make sure your important question/comment is addressed.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: This is a public meeting, so we keep and publish a transcript of what is said in local chat.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: We have some groups you are welcome to join!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Check out the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable group in Second Life and our group on Facebook.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Follow us on Twitter @VWER.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: When you blog or tweet, please remember to include the hashtag #VWER.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: OK, that’s it for the general announcements.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Today’s meeting is an Open Forum, so we’re free to ask any questions and make any comments related to virtual worlds and education,
Grizzla Pixelmaid: altho’ I’ll usually gently attempt to keep us on one topic at a time.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Now, we like to begin by introducing ourselves, and if this is your first time here, please say so, so we can take good care of you.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Everyone can type at once!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I’m Chris Robinson, “Virtual Assistant” in the Office of Educational Technology for Georgia Gwinnett College in metro Atlanta.
Birdie Newcomb: Birdie Newborn, educator at a distance
Zotarah Shepherd: I am working on an MA in Education Technology at Sonoma State University in northern California. I finished all my classes. My Thesis project: Teaching and Learning Life Awareness & Success Skills in Virtual Worlds.
Zoe Foodiboo: Zoe Foodiboo, RL archivist at a fine arts museum. In SL I am the librarian/archivist for the 1920s Berlin Project.
Shailey Garfield: Shailey, The Open University, UK
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Joe Essid, Educator and temporary fire-fighter in the office today. I will teach w/ SL again in Spring at the House of Usher Simulation
Zoe Foodiboo: Oh, and I’m new to the group. Just stumbled upon it.
Galileo Zeplin: ed johnson, university system of georgia
Zotarah Shepherd: I am currently visiting a friend in Seattle for another week too.
Shailey Garfield: Great, Zoe
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Glad you can join us, Zoe!
Birdie Newcomb: welcome Zoe
Zoe Foodiboo: Thanks!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Yes, Zoe, how did you hear about the group?
Rk Jinn: Rick Anderson, Director of Virtual Worlds, Rutgers University. teaching Self, and Society in Virtual Contexts
Profdan Netizen: Dan Holt, Lansing Community College, Lansing, MI. This fall semester, I’m teaching 2 sections of fy composition and a section of creative writing in SL. And another composition 2D online. This summer, self published an urban fantasy/urban realism story cycle, The Annunciation of Jack: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008IJRT36
Grizzla Pixelmaid: /me applauds Dan
Zoe Foodiboo: Through the announcement via Real Life Education in Second Life…..I think I joined when I saw it in someone else’s profile and thought it looked interesting.
Birdie Newcomb: Always interesting
Zoe Foodiboo grins
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Cool! Well, since you’re a newcomer, I’ll give you first dibs on asking a question or introducing a topic. Don’t want to put you on the spot, either.
Birdie Newcomb: right
Zoe Foodiboo goes blank….
Grizzla Pixelmaid: OK that’s fine. Anybody come with a question? Discussion topic?
Birdie Newcomb: I thought the topic was what people are up to, these days
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Anyone teaching with students in SL for the first time this semester?
Grizzla Pixelmaid: That was last week, altho anybody can still say what they’re up to
Rk Jinn: I’m transitioning my class from SL to OpenSIm in the next couple of weeks.
Sheila Yoshikawa: Rk, had the students used SL before? or are they a new cohort
Sheila Yoshikawa: I suppose I mean – are you all transitioning or is it just you
Rk Jinn: There are 4 sections of this course. So for the first 2 weeks everyone was in SL. I’ve got a really large build and resources in OpenSim. That needs load testing before all 100 studenstrs start using it.
Rk Jinn: So I’m bringing one section of the couse over this semester
Birdie Newcomb: @RK – have you done the builds already?
Sheila Yoshikawa: will be interesting to see what they think of the 2 environments, or whether they notice the difference…
Profdan Netizen: Do they use your opensim build all at the same time?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Can’t wait to hear about it. We needed lots of hand-holding by Jokay when we brought my class over last year. Which grid?
Rk Jinn: The openSim builds are done. We have class resources, ecerything. Just need to see if the servers can handle the students in the volume we expect.
Birdie Newcomb: I heard OpenSim doesn’t have the avatar llimitations that SL does – true?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Birdie, in short…different limitations
Rk Jinn: That’s one eighth of the area
Shailey Garfield: It looks great, RK
Pathfinder Lester: howdy folks
Zoe Foodiboo: Lovely!
Zotarah Shepherd: I will be building in Opensim in a couple of months. I have to make new textures for my old SL builds first and get moved.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Using Imprudence for the exports, Zo?
Birdie Newcomb: Which sim, Zo?
Grizzla Pixelmaid: We’re still sticking with SL for now – getting ready to bring maybe 80 students in this semester
Zotarah Shepherd: I am not sure yet. Maybe Reaction Grid or Jokaydia. I cannot afford a whole sim in SL any more
Birdie Newcomb: That happened to me
Rk Jinn: Pathfinder, is ReactionGrid still hosting stand alone sims?
Pathfinder Lester: Zotarah, you should definitely check out JokaydiaGrid. She rents single regions.
Pathfinder Lester: Rk, no.
Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks Path I will.
Pathfinder Lester: we host a few large grids like JokaydiaGrid (about 100 regions) but that’s it for Opensim for us.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Zotorah, we still have space we’re not using. If you have a plan, I could present it and see if we could get approval to share.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Jokaydia Grid has worked well since the upgrade, too.
Pathfinder Lester: Here’s info on Jokay’s single region rentals. http://www.jokaydiagrid.com/jokaydiagrid-rental-info/
Birdie Newcomb: way cheaper than SL
Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks Grizzla I think I need a whole sim to set it all up if just for the prim use.
Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks for the link Path. It sounds good
Pathfinder Lester: yw
[Note: on Oct. 2, 2012, Jokaydia Grid announced its upcoming move away from ReactionGrid, to a new hosting arrangement with SimHost. See http://jokaydia.com/2012/10/the-removalists-are-coming/]
Galileo Zeplin: sl still has advantage of huge amount of developed content…is that relevant to sim selection for educational purposes?
Zotarah Shepherd: How does au compare to US$
Profdan Netizen: Currently 1.04
Zotarah Shepherd: I will always keep a bit of land in SL too.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Galileo, it’s certainly relevant for us. OpenSim is still “Free like a puppy” as far as we’re concerned.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Galileo, my students wanted a combat system for our simulation. Now that we have a mirror site of part of the build in SL again, I can use one of the free HUDs like Spellfire to make Usher more dangerous and Poe-like.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Iggy, I still hope you put in a collapsing ceiling.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Grizzla it’s on the list. Drowning too
Tori Landau: puts visiting Iggy’s sim on the to do list
Rk Jinn: Iggy, that is cool. Any tips on where to get started? Did you have to buy the scripts or are there some open source ones?
Zotarah Shepherd: I have used Spellfire. It is a good system and you can make your own weapons from their kits too
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Rk, check at the Christmas holidays. I will need to do it all in about 10 sleepless days as I’m working on some writing and class plans must wait
Zotarah Shepherd: I have not been to your sim in ages Iggy.
Profdan Netizen: RK, are your regions hosted on your own servers?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Thanks to Kali, we have it in SL again and I’ll drop you the LM
Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks!
Beth Ghostraven: I still have not been to any other virtual world besides SL. Don’t even know where to start
Tori Landau: Thanks Iggy
Rk Jinn: There are hosted on my own amazon servers
Rk Jinn: Just updated to 0.7.4 and latest diva
Sheila Yoshikawa: for Beth (and anyone else) there is a gridhop to Jokaydia this Sunday: ACRL Virtual Worlds Interest Group meeting which will be a gridhopping event to a different virtual world. Library builder, Barbara Janson (Avatar: Barbarathelibrarian Magic), will lead our tour.
Pathfinder Lester: for folks starting out, I always suggest trying this: http://simonastick.com Run your own opensim grid on your own computer.
Birdie Newcomb: @Beth Talk to Pathfinder, he’s done tours hypergridding,to visit different grids.
Tori Landau: oh thanks for that Path, been told to try it … when have time
Birdie Newcomb: simonastick doesn’t work on macs 8=(
Beth Ghostraven: Great, thanks!
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Yes, and I can say from experience that Path is very patient with those of us who are hypergrid-challenged.
Rk Jinn: I’m considering taking the Rutgers tutorial area and distrubing it as sim on a stick. Not sure itf it’s a good idea though.
Pathfinder Lester: ty for the kind words Grizzla
Beth Ghostraven: I used to think I was smart before I got on SL
Galileo Zeplin: are there any reliable statistics indicating how much educational activity has left sl for other sims?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Sheila, given the state of Imprudence, will the new Firestorm OS viewer replace it eventually for you?
Ellie Brewster: Didn’t I hear that they’ve just put out a new version of Imprudence?
Birdie Newcomb: Haven’t tried Firestorm — sounds dangerous…
Sheila Yoshikawa: I don’t know – I was just passing on that notice I didn’t organise the visit.
Ellie Brewster: I like Firestorm, though.
Grizzla Pixelmaid: I like Firestorm – it’s still my viewer of choice, though I’ve had a little trouble after their recent update.
Beth Ghostraven: Galileo, good question–I’ve heard a lot of anecdotal evidence, but nothing quantifiable
Sheila Yoshikawa: I was thinking that I might have to download Imprudence again – so should I just cut straight to firestorm (to vist Jo’s grid)?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Thanks, Ellie. I’ll look, but last time they were still searching for a Mac OS coder for Imprudence and as I often say, no Mac, no Iggy
Rk Jinn: Kokua is the new version. Unfortunately it doesn’t have the import/export options
Ellie Brewster: well, I’m a Mac person, too. agree with you, Iggy.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Rk, thanks. That too is a deal breaker. the Import/export features are golden
Rk Jinn: Anyone know if any new viewer supports export/import?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I’d find a PC for OpenSim if only to have that utility. Made bringing OS content to SL very easy when we rebuilt Usher here
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Astra viewer does, but keep in mind, LL has cut us off from any viewer that can also access OpenSim, those scamps
Beth Ghostraven: What do you use to access OpenSim?
Birdie Newcomb: so, what’s the workaround?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Birdie..there is no workaround. We are cut off. You need two viewers now, and you won’t be able to import content any longer.
Zotarah Shepherd: I mostly use Imprudence to access OpenSim
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Correct me if that is wrong, as I can often be!
Ellie Brewster: wait…. what? Phoenix doesn’t work in both OS and SL?
Rk Jinn: They have to do one build with Havok physics and one without.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: There must be two different versions now, after LL’s new policy
Ellie Brewster: I see!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: because of licensing for Havok
Rk Jinn: We would need to lobby Intel to provide havok client to OpenSIm
Tori Landau: I used to use SL v1.23 for accessing everything, sigh
Galileo Zeplin: ah, so its the physics engine…interesting. what physics does opensim use?
Rk Jinn: Ogre
Rk Jinn: testing bullit
Galileo Zeplin: ah
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I don’t care what engine we use, as long as my students can pound each other with swords. Funny how many of them demanded that!
Galileo Zeplin: hehe
Ellie Brewster: Funny, mine prefer earrings.
Pathfinder Lester: opensim physics is…..not so hot
Sheila Yoshikawa: I think you just gave me my educator’s quote of the year, Iggy
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Will others complain that swordplay doesn’t add to their learning outcomes?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: They said “It’s a Poe tale…someone needs to die”
Zotarah Shepherd: Tori I still use v1.23 here. Just to be rebellious and I have tried other viewers and don’t like them as well.
Sheila Yoshikawa: )
Profdan Netizen: lol, sometimes hard to tell what they most like. Many of my students really like parachuting!
Pathfinder Lester: if you want real physics, need a real physics engine like Havok or PhysX
Galileo Zeplin: i see
Galileo Zeplin: that should be another drawing card for sl, despite the higher cost, perhaps
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I just think they wanted to kill the teacher in my class, as I was Roderick Usher the last few times
Zotarah Shepherd: Fun is getting orbited and falling thousands of meters and not getting hurt.
Profdan Netizen: Path, are the physics engines being used/tested for opensim not real?
Tori Landau: oh I use v3 now, works well for me whereas, er, coincidentally, Phoenix which I loved for building with, doesn’t anymore
Ellie Brewster: Why, Tori?
Pathfinder Lester: Profdan, not enterprise-quality
Profdan Netizen: Ahh, OK.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Havok works well enough with a good roleplay HUD. Lag is always an issue, naturally
Tori Landau: very laggy for me Ellie, Phoenix, Firestorm, Imprudence… anything not v3 basically
Pathfinder Lester: engines like Havok and PhysX have been developed over years, and are used in many different physics-heavy games. they’re tried and tested and proven to work very well.
Profdan Netizen: I use media share a lot with Google docs and web pages so I need v3.
Galileo Zeplin: what sort of physics do you use at reactiongrid, path?
Pathfinder Lester: Jibe uses PhysX (built-in to Unity3d, which is part of Jibe)
Galileo Zeplin: ah ok thanks
Pathfinder Lester: http://unity3d.com/unity/engine/physics
Profdan Netizen: Path, are enterprise quality physics engines not used with opensim because of cost?
Pathfinder Lester: cost and licensing issues. someone has to pay for commercial physics engines, and opensim is not a commercial project.
Pathfinder Lester: LL pays Havok to use it in SL
Pathfinder Lester: Unity pays nVidia to use PhysX in Unity3d
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: We think of OpenSim as a unified thing, when it’s really a constellation of many grids. It would be hard to agree on a standard, I’d guess
Pathfinder Lester: good point
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Folks, we have about 10 minutes left, and I’ll interrupt to announce next week’s meeting now, since some need to leave early: Next week’s meeting, Sept. 27, the topic will be “Students’ Experiences in VWs: avoiding the bad, maximizing the good.”
Rk Jinn: it’s more of an issue of testing. Bullit is pretty nice and open source, but the problem is not enough people have time to test it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_(software)
Rk Jinn: I spelled it wrong – it’s Bullet, not bullit
Rk Jinn: Sl, has incoporated havok into the client. Which is closed source.
Profdan Netizen: Not if you’re talking about the Steve McQueen movie!
Galileo Zeplin: heh
Pathfinder Lester: /me loved that movie
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: 1968 Mustang Fastback, baby!
Profdan Netizen: on San Francisco hills!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: woof woof time for me to get another speeding ticket. Why did you mention that film?
Ellie Brewster: Yes, now I know why youre interested in Physics engines
Al Supercharge: found an interesting training site http://www.udemy.com
Al Supercharge: create your own courses and get paid
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: <–and get fired, at my school, I fear
Galileo Zeplin: what would be an example of some feature that an advanced physics engine would provide, in contrast to a lesser sort?
Al Supercharge: and Linden Lab’s 2 new products look like crap
Galileo Zeplin: so that we have sense of the implications of which engine is used
Al Supercharge: a physics engine where all the LSL functions work
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Al, I hope to have a meeting about that Oct. 4. My wife would completely disagree. They are using iOS devices with K-5 kids and Creatorverse caught her eye RIGHT away
Al Supercharge: they should have gone for an SL LIGHT subset instead
Al Supercharge: instead of 2D
Profdan Netizen: It looks like it could be a lot of fun for kids on iPads.
Rk Jinn: Better physcis means better science and timing. Also, optimization so speed increases.
Galileo Zeplin: good points, thanks
Rk Jinn: For some reason LL believes client side physics is a big efficieny boost
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I hope you’ll come to the Oct. 4 meeting, Al. There’s been a lot of discussion of the two new products at New World Notes
Rk Jinn: Cool. See you all next time
Al Supercharge takes note
Ellie Brewster: Lots of good gossip today.
Rk Jinn: Ooops. I’ll be at OpenHardware Summit, and MakerFaire NYC. See you all in two weeks.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: lots of interesting news, lately, about SL and its maker
Beth Ghostraven: Iggy, where do you get news about SL?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Beth, from Tateru Nino and Hamlet Au
Profdan Netizen: http://lindenlab.com/
Profdan Netizen: “Maker of Creative Spaces.”
Al Supercharge: somebody in the SLED email group created a SCIENCE SIMS TP list / (HUD?)
Grizzla Pixelmaid: How do we get that?
Zotarah Shepherd: Thanks everyone this was a very informative meeting. Thanks Grizzla.
Tori Landau: they did, was it Yan Lauria… think we have to go to the location in the email, not tried it yet but thought about sticking one at Moonstone/ISI
[Note: information on the Teleport Hub, and a free copy of the hub, can be obtained at the Abyss Observatory in Second Life: Second Earth 3 (221, 32, 22).]
Rk Jinn: Thanks again. Gotta run. Good to see you all again
Grizzla Pixelmaid: Time to wrap it up. The official meeting is over – but feel free to hang out and chat unofficially for as long as you like.