December 8, 2016: All I Want for Christmas

December 8th, 2016 | Posted by Beth in Transcripts

Transcript of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable: December 8, 2016

Topic: All I Want for Christmas

Photos by Beth Ghostraven

Sheila Yoshikawa: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable. We meet on Thursdays at 12 noon SLT for an hour. 8pm In UK, 3pm EST. VWER is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education in virtual worlds. This is a public meeting, so we will be keeping and publishing a transcript. The transcripts can be found at The VWER continues to develop a community of educators from around the world.

Please join the VWER group here in SL. If you are on Facebook, or Google+ please join our group there. Also find and post pictures to our Flickr group and follow us on Twitter @VWER. When you blog or tweet, please remember to include the tag #vwer. You can catch up on our tweetchat at #vwer.

The topic for this week’s meeting will be: “All I want for Christmas …” Let’s start as we normally do and introduce ourselves. As usual we will be in text chat for the whole session.

Birdie Newcomb: world peace…

Kali Pizzaro: Evelyn McElhinney, PhD, Lecturer Nursing, Glasgow Caledonian University Scotland VWER Lead

Sheila Yoshikawa: lol Birdie

Sheila Yoshikawa: I teach and research in the Information School, University of Sheffield, UK

Birdie Newcomb: Birdie Newborn, college publisher

Beth Ghostraven: Beth Ghostraven, middle school teacher-librarian in RL and owner of the Book and Tankard Pub in Victoria City, Caledon in SL; Communications Chair for the VWBPE Conference; unofficial liaison between education groups in SL. For information on events for the educational groups that I work with, see the ISTE VEN Massive Open Online Calendar at I’ll be taking photos to publish with the transcript; if you have any objection, please IM me.

Camie Rembrandt: Vocational/Professional Trainer with a Postgraduate Diploma in Education (E-Learning Pedagogy). Digital Storyteller. Exophonic Writer. Currently hosting “Once Upon a Winter Story” – a Christmas Literature Quiz with Prizes – at Chilbo.

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Selby Evans, Blogger,   THE DICKENS PROJECT 2016 Opens December 10th

Shanti (shanti.suntzu): Shanti. I teach psychology in RL

Sheila Yoshikawa: Dickens project should be good as usual!

Beth Ghostraven: I’ll be exhibiting for my shop, Ghostraven Professional Attire, at the OpenSim Community Conference this weekend

Stranger Nightfire: Stranger here, wandering SL bum

Edward Tarber: Edward Tarber, Computer Scientist and IT entrepreneur, virtual world developer, interested in education, teaching and learning use cases

Lyr Lobo: Lyr Lobo, Cynthia Calongne, Professor, software engineer, author, and researcher in VR since 1995 *chuckles*  taught 50+ university classes in SL;  and an organizing committee member for OSCC

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Ed Tarber has a virtual world accessed by browser.

Camie Rembrandt: @Selby, just shared THE DICKENS PROJECT 2016 on and twitter

Sheila Yoshikawa: So on facebook I advertised this as: “The topic for this week’s meeting will be: “All I want for Christmas …” What would you like as your virtual worlds Christmas present? What would help most in your teaching? in your learning? for your virtual worlds fun? What would be on your present list if the Lindens were acting as Santa?” I thought perhaps we could start with TEACHER: What would be on your virtual worlds present list you sent to santa? as a teacher? Would it be a new virtual world? More students? some sort of gadget? Different colleagues?

Beth Ghostraven: a job teaching in virtual worlds, lol

Sheila Yoshikawa: with pay, Beth, I presume!

Beth Ghostraven: oh, yes

Birdie Newcomb: and not just Linden dollars..

Beth Ghostraven: haha yes, Birdie

Sheila Yoshikawa: nope, real money

Camie Rembrandt: A virtual world as good as SL but without all the bad publicity

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): What I want is a browser based viewer

Kali Pizzaro: folks to see the light and realise this is not as hard as they think

Camie Rembrandt: yes, a browser based virtual world as good as SL (i.e. with the same amount/quality content) would be great

Kali Pizzaro: yes browser based would be good

Birdie Newcomb: I’d like to see a map of the colleges or schools, perhaps a universal transporter. — to go visiting

Lyr Lobo: You mean beyond Bright Canopy or what we’re working on in MOSES< Thinkerer?

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Yes, Lyr — MOSES objective

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): a built in video recorder in the browser would be great 🙂

Stranger Nightfire: I remember the guy behind Rockcliffe University once bemoaning the fact that if a class is given in SL everyone expects it to be free. I think that had been the original idea behind Rockcliffe to be a real educational institute

Beth Ghostraven: also, Santa, I’d like an Opinionator

Shanti (shanti.suntzu): I want the same as Birdie…. plus a browser based viewer…

Lyr Lobo: I was wondering if anyone tried Bright Canopy?

Camie Rembrandt: @Birdie that is technically possible, maybe not so easy to achieve for lack of organizaition?

Birdie Newcomb: yes, that too

Beth Ghostraven: Is Bright Canopy still a thing?

Lyr Lobo: not sure, looking at their site

Lyr Lobo:

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Ed has part — the viewer works in the browser.

Birdie Newcomb: what is Bright Canopy?

Lyr Lobo: Browser-based viewer for Second Life @Birdie

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): Cannot say I have looked at bright Canopy

Birdie Newcomb: Ah, I’ll look into it

Shanti (shanti.suntzu): Oh so it exists… got to try it.

Sheila Yoshikawa: So so far we’ve got “folks to see the light”, a browser based world, a built in video recorder, a teleport-enabled-map of universities, an opinionator, and a paid job as a teacher in virtual worlds

Beth Ghostraven: (of course, the Opinionator is already in existence)

Lyr Lobo: for topics, Sheila?

Sheila Yoshikawa: no as wishes @Lyr

Camie Rembrandt: I use Lumiya Viewer on my Android tablet – would it really be so difficult to have something like that run on a web browser?

Edward Tarber: more important than the viewer itself are the tools it will provide: like a presenter, a virtual black-/white-board, virtual post-its, …

Sheila Yoshikawa: think I had “twelve days of Christmas” mentally running

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Bright Canopy is Server Side rendering and costs.

Sheila Yoshikawa: Yes, actually I though Bright Canopy had faded away – is it still live?

Lyr Lobo: I want a development tool for building simulations and offering 360 degree 3D VR content with interaction–so the 3D videos are not linear, but adapt to our presence and how we interact with the story and change it

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Browser based viewer renders on the user’s graphics system and doesn’t cost extra

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): free uploads of mesh  🙂 a raccoon can dream.

Camie Rembrandt: 🙂

Sheila Yoshikawa: In formulating wishes, I realise how ignorant I am about the state of development of various initiatives, e.g. oculus rift and SL; because one of my wishes would be to help people see the light by showing them how SL has got all these scenes and scenarios waiting for their VR glasses please

Stranger Nightfire: yes Ed, about tools, can anyone believe how limited the functionality of SL notecards is to this day?

Edward Tarber: yes, indeed … technically it is not so difficult to simply “write” on any texture

Sheila Yoshikawa: notecards where you could do bold and italics ….

Stranger Nightfire: I guess that will be my wish, a reasonable up to date notecard system

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Open sim has capability to write on a prim, but it does not work well

Edward Tarber: I am writing “advanced notecards” on my todo list for cybalounge right now :))

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): in here to write on a prim does it require to use a script and notecard?

Sheila Yoshikawa: something to create poster without having to do them externally and then upload them ….

Birdie Newcomb: So, is Santa listening, taking notes?

Sheila Yoshikawa: I sincerely hope so

Sheila Yoshikawa: we have the eggnog and cookies laid out for him

Beth Ghostraven looks around for cookies

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): looks around for eggnog

Sheila Yoshikawa: lol I will move them over @Beth @Delightful

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): Thanks Sheila

Lyr Lobo: The challenge, Sheila, is in head tracking and providing a comfortable visual experience with your head-mounted display device. SL was designed to support the testing of haptic interfaces, but lacks the drivers and integrated usability features to make wearing an Oculus while in world comfortable and visually appealing.

Lyr Lobo: when you wear Google Cardboard with a 3D Vr app, you can look around the 360 degree field of vision for how it was filmed…which is breathtaking when the content is designed for it *grins*

Kali Pizzaro: 😉

Sheila Yoshikawa: so what about as learners, and for fun?

Sheila Yoshikawa: any virtual world wishes that would just make life happier or calmer or richer?

Kali Pizzaro: For learners, an acceptance from the university that this is part of their normal learning ‘place’–so if they used it frequently then it would become a norm and much more extincting than BB blackboard!

Lyr Lobo: but you have an important distinction in these worlds that we lack in 3D VR – interaction with content, interaction with one another socially, and a sense of our bodies and presence

Kali Pizzaro: yes I agree–a sense of place of presence and social presence so presence to place and people

Lyr Lobo: Selby addresses it with the browser-based viewer so we don’t have to wear a HMD and have interaction with a simpler, easy to use interface that does not require a download or updates

Kali Pizzaro: sorry slipping into the PhD findings there lol

Lyr Lobo grins

Lyr Lobo: always a delight, Kali

Sheila Yoshikawa: eggnog and cookies, my wish is your command

Sheila Yoshikawa: or do I mean your wish is my command?

Sheila Yoshikawa: anyway

Sheila Yoshikawa: there they are on the table

Lyr Lobo grins at Sheila

Edward Tarber: the virtual world should “feel” like an extension of the real world not like an imitation and/or replacement

Lyr Lobo smiles and nods

Sheila Yoshikawa: ah AI so you drop the notecard in and it displays on the prim

Birdie Newcomb: thanks for the eggnog, delish

Al Supercharge: yes and the notecard can contain html

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I think we have 2 directions — Tech-based and people-based.  Tech-based will appeal to techies and people-based will appeal to everyone else/

Sheila Yoshikawa: actually one thing I need for Xmas is more time or courage to start talking more with students and colleagues about SL. I sort of stopped doing it a few years ago; I think I should try and re-engage

Sheila Yoshikawa: lol Selby–yes I’m in the “everyone else” camp

Stranger Nightfire: I think maybe virtual is about to get its second wind

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): I am just getting started 🙂

Stranger Nightfire: a lot of stuff on the horizon

Beth Ghostraven: Kali, did you see this? “Immersion Revisited: a Review of Existing Definitions of Immersion and Their Relation to Different Theories of Presence”

Stranger Nightfire: that looks interesting

Kali Pizzaro: thanks @Beth another taxonomy of immersion lol

Lyr Lobo smiles and nods

Sheila Yoshikawa: thanks Beth

Kali Pizzaro: and presence

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): Thanks for the paper Beth. Nice Christmas gift!

Sheila Yoshikawa: so it seems like we have fewer wishes to add as learners or for learners. Perhaps some of them are just the same as for us as teachers! and no one has any purely recreational virtual worlds wish list?

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): If you have a browser-viewer anyone who can use a browser could come in and visit your virtual world.

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Teachers are wishing for the benefit of the students

Sheila Yoshikawa: 😉

Sheila Yoshikawa: actually “more prims per region” would have been a wish, but I was so used to thinking it was hopeless to wish for it I stopped doing it

Sheila Yoshikawa: it HAS made me think there may be other desirable changes that I have just given up on, like the notecards mentioned earlier

Lyr Lobo: and now you have it, with 22,500 prims, eh, per region

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes, I was SOOO excited when I got them on my mainland plot

Lyr Lobo grins and nods

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): it is a wonderful increase 🙂

Sheila Yoshikawa: ok, it’s a perennial topic but – what is our wish from Santa Linden? Is it a subset of what we’ve just been talking about?

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): no lag

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): One of the OpenSim devs said  to me “I don’t need a browser-viewer.”   I said “Neither do I for myself — but I want it for the new people I want to bring in.”

Sheila Yoshikawa: more avatars per sim; as a shopaholic I’m tired of trying to get into events which are full for the first couple of days

Sheila Yoshikawa: at the moment “no lag” and “more avatars” are incompatible

Birdie Newcomb: how many does it take to crash a sim?

Sheila Yoshikawa: actually a wider range of default settings, so with one click you could minimise the amount you saw of other avatars, close down thee draw distance etc

Stranger Nightfire: I don’t think we will see more avatars per sim in SL, I don’t think their system is very scalable that way; but we certainly could see it in some of the new worlds that are coming

Sheila Yoshikawa: easier for newbies and time saving for residents

Edward Tarber: an average avatar uses up to 150MB of memory on the server running the sim

Kali Pizzaro: a better search although i think not having a great search function actually means people have to find other strategies and I suppose one of those is to ‘connect’ to others and build networks 😉

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes Kali!! with my subject area I should have thought of that first!

Kali Pizzaro: 😉 well I let you off I studied it for five years lol

Kali Pizzaro: sneaky

Al Supercharge: curious — what would be your no. 1 search ?

Sheila Yoshikawa: also on Marketplace, possibly they could review the categories they have

Stranger Nightfire: I think the search engine in SL Marketplace has got to be the worst one I have ever seen

Sheila Yoshikawa: Search is obviously related to what is searchable

Edward Tarber: it’s not the search engine alone … the problem is with the data, too. In order to have a great search you need a lot of indexing on the data

Camie Rembrandt: 100% agree with @Selby: [12:33] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): One of the OpenSim devs said to me “I don’t need a browser-viewer.” I said “Neither do I for my self — but I want it for the new people I want to bring in.”

Kali Pizzaro: I think part of the problem that people brought up in my study was that something related to health may be on part of an uni island but that would not find it if you just searched for heart health for example

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Edward, that’s what I meant – notably the metadata in objects

Edward Tarber: exactly 🙂

Sheila Yoshikawa: which varies wildly depending on who created it. I think more tagging allowed for regions

Kali Pizzaro: yes and different viewers have different search results even if you search for the same thing

Sheila Yoshikawa: more sophisticated–places rather than regions, I meant

Kali Pizzaro: nod

Al Supercharge: 76 Results for “health” in Places

Kali Pizzaro: plus it costs to advertise your place

Stranger Nightfire: and would it not be great to be able to add tags to the stuff in our inventory?

Kali Pizzaro: yes AI but are they specific

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): If places had web pages,  you could use Google search

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): Crowdsourced metadata tagging for accessible viewing and searching. That would be awesome, especially when virtual environments connect with the physical world

Al Supercharge: finding stuff in inventory is major problem

Eli (eliana.zaytsev): *waves*

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Stranger yes – I do rename things when I can, to make them more findable, but sometimes they are no mod. The search function in inventory – that’s the worst of the lot

Edward Tarber: it simply does a full text search … ermm .. maybe not even “full” … lol

Beth Ghostraven: at least I have control over what some things are named in my inventory

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): it helps to search by item type too i find in the inventory.  such as just narrowing it down to a script.

Sheila Yoshikawa: actually that would perhaps be more doable than some things, improving inventory search – but I don’t know what the programming behind that function is, presumably searching a directory?

Sheila Yoshikawa: but yes – being able to add tags to every item including ones you couldn’t modify would improve my SL

Edward Tarber: it’s more like searching a tree

Stranger Nightfire: some creators give their products names that make them utterly impossible to find, I can think of two things that literally I could not find for years till I happened to stumble across them again

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes and I have an artwork by Bryn Oh in my inventory that has been lost for years, I simply cannot remember what it was called

Sheila Yoshikawa: I DO have a crude set of folder headings, but sometimes I forget and log off before putting something in a folder….

Lyr Lobo: some of those lost items, Sheila, are either hard to index until your inventory gets under a certain size or if the name matched content outside of SL, removed by the digital rights tool (in some cases).

Beth Ghostraven: Sheila, you can search your inventory by creator, maybe you could find Bryn’s art that way

Al Supercharge: how do u search by creator ?

Beth Ghostraven: in Firestorm, click on the gear, and click on Search By…

Sheila Yoshikawa: ah I use the SL browser

Beth Ghostraven: oh Sheila, I would never survive hunts without firestorm’s Area Search, lol

Al Supercharge: there is no FILTER for creator in the SL viewer 🙁

Lyr Lobo laughs

Lyr Lobo: didn’t realize that, Al…there is still in Viewer One compatible Third Party viewers

Lyr Lobo: I haven’t used the SL viewer in a long while tho

Sheila Yoshikawa: OK for the last 15 minutes

Sheila Yoshikawa: If YOU were Santa

Kali Pizzaro: So for santa you are asking to make you more organised and disciplined to organise your inventory 😉

Sheila Yoshikawa: what would you feel you could give to virtual worlds?

Kali Pizzaro: So can I be MS Claus

Sheila Yoshikawa: say if you had magic powers and lots of money – or just a lot more time

Sheila Yoshikawa: yep Kali

Kali Pizzaro: 😉

Sheila Yoshikawa: Actually I would like to magically create welcome areas that were matched to people’s wants, so when they came into SL they were transported to somewhere that had something that interested them–a kind of sorting hat, but with more than 4 options (I recently visited Warner Brothers Making of Harry Potter in the physical world, it reminded me of Potter world…)

Lyr Lobo: adaptive spaces

Edward Tarber: I would love to provide the browser based virtual world for newbies … easy to use, easy to create

Birdie Newcomb: If I were Santa, I’d open Yazdi’s Junkyard again

Kali Pizzaro: I would a magic wand and suddenly everyone would realise the fantastic positive assets people get from VWs already for example a quote sorry from my thesis (I know I am boring you now) but I think this sums it up nicely – “Friendship, beautiful surroundings…these things mean so much. I just think of it as love…love that motivates ppl [people] here to share beauty they create with others…love expressed by hugs, discussion, concern… all of it… just love…and the power of love to heal and give us a focus outside of rl [real life] ‘issues’ that we cannot control and sometimes, feel victimized by. Love and laughter have had a huge positive effect on my physical issues as well as on my feelings of loneliness and isolation in rl.” (Mary, First Diary May 2014)

Stranger Nightfire: one suggestion for people who have a lot of outfits – you don’t want to put outfits in subfolders because that messes up the functionality of SL outfits  – but what you can do is name the outfits with prefixes – like Historical – Victorian – Whatever

Stranger Nightfire: that way they get sorted out alphabetically

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): If I were Santa I would give virtual worlds a critical function within enterprises to unleash innovation and wellbeing across professional and personal life. Worlds must be interoperable and secure. Now… how to do that *smiles* in my lifetime please

Camie Rembrandt: very sweet, Kali

Lyr Lobo grins at Delightful and nods

Sheila Yoshikawa: 🙂 Delightful – and Kali

Camie Rembrandt: the beauty is here in vws, but also the ugliness – just like in the physical world

Kali Pizzaro: exactly

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): The browser-based viewer could have entry on a relevant web page.. Educator web page would offer entry to educator-intro Island.  Maybe not on SL, but in opensim– where we control things like that.

Birdie Newcomb: in the eye of the beholder…

Sheila Yoshikawa: and if you were to give an Xmas gift to the Lindens

Sheila Yoshikawa: what would it be

Kali Pizzaro: but for many the positive outweighs the neg

Sheila Yoshikawa: what gift would you leave on their pixel doorstep?

Birdie Newcomb: broader imagination

Sheila Yoshikawa: 😉

Kali Pizzaro: more time to explore

Sheila Yoshikawa: good one Birdie

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): Fearlessness from abundant love

Kali Pizzaro: and teach and create my own company to teach 😉

Lyr Lobo: collaboration tools to leverage and crowdsource new design features and interactive tools through resident participation, for the Linden gift. Imagine what we could accomplish if everyone contributed their ideas and pieces of the puzzle

Camie Rembrandt: @Kali vws can take you to beautiful places – emotionally speaking

Kali Pizzaro: and research

Sheila Yoshikawa: ooo some wonderful creative ideas here

Sheila Yoshikawa: “your imagination”

Camie Rembrandt: @Kali there have been some experiments with mindfulness in vws

Sheila Yoshikawa: is that still a strapline for SL, by the way?

Kali Pizzaro: nods

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes it is

Stranger Nightfire: it is interesting to remember that with the exception of the basic land and water and such, all of SL is user created

Camie Rembrandt: I use vws to create a setting that helps me to write

Sheila Yoshikawa: my problem is thinking ahead, my problem is not enjoying the moment …..

Lyr Lobo: good will, love, caring and values based on character strengths are qualities that I would anchor with Kali’s wish

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): Ah yes, stay in the present

Edward Tarber: the content is user created, but LL creates features they think to be important and not what users would want/need

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes perhaps if we surround the Lindens with positive energy and love they will do the things we want 😉

Lyr Lobo: how content is experienced depends on the viewer to some extent and on our imagination and interpretation

Sheila Yoshikawa: [I mean – I don’t have a problem enjoying the moment]

Edward Tarber: replace “love” with “money” and it will happen 😉

Sheila Yoshikawa: lol

Birdie Newcomb: May the Lindens continue the journey

Camie Rembrandt: the viewer and the system requirements 🙂

Lyr Lobo grins at Edward and starts humming the song “Can’t buy me love…”

Edward Tarber: hahaha

Camie Rembrandt: having a gaming computer does help. I cannot explain “beauty in vws” to someone who is seeing everything as gray blobs

Kali Pizzaro: 😉

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): exchange value for money and there is great hope

Stranger Nightfire: the skeleton crew that are currently in charge of SL seem to be a decent and caring bunch, and technically the are working wonders considering how limited they are in number, we should remember to acknowledge them more and give them our thanks

Sheila Yoshikawa: @ Stranger re the “skeleton crew” – yes

Sheila Yoshikawa: and on that positive note

Sheila Yoshikawa: I think that’s it for this week! I think I will trawl through and pull out the wishes to make a list!

Beth Ghostraven: This was great! Thanks, Sheila!

Camie Rembrandt:Sheila Yoshikawa: you may wish to say some words

Sheila Yoshikawa: about the Christmas PARTY which takes place next week–skating! Dancing! Presents! food and drink!  all to be experienced this time next week. We have also a DJ

Delightful (delightful.doowangle): Love the snow and frosted leaves and branches. Thank you!

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): ok — Useful discussion.  I look forward to January.

Kali Pizzaro: please spread the word all welcome

Edward Tarber: great … virtual food … more pixels, less calories

Beth Ghostraven: I hope to see you all at OSCC this weekend too, in OpenSim!

Kali Pizzaro: tada we aim to please

Camie Rembrandt: yes, I love virtual food

Sheila Yoshikawa: thanks to everyone

Camie Rembrandt: virtual food is highly photogenic and has zero calories 😀

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